Vegetarianism/Veganism/Animal Rights

[LiebeUndLicht]

So, in our religion and philosophy lesson today, we were talking about animals, and I wanted to share my opinions and wanted to know some of yours.
Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I wasn't really sure where to put it. So, the teacher talked to me, he saw my necklace but he was kind of staring at my chest and it was a bit awkward and I think he sensed it and he was like "Oh, sorry, I was just looking at your Wiccan symbol." I said "Oh," then he said "Are you Wiccan?" And I said "yes," and he was kind of like "Oh, interesting." I find it awkward to talk about my religion in front of people who aren't Pagan/Wiccan/Witches because I feel like they judge.
Anyway, back to the point, we were talking about vegetarianism, and I'm not personally a vegetarian, but my friends are (nothing to do with religion, they just love animals, well so do I but I'll get into that later). The teacher came back to talk to us, and he asked the girl I was sat next to whether she would kill an animal herself for meat, and she said yes, why not? Then he said to me that I didn't look very impressed, so I told him that I feel bad if I kill bugs because they have lives too. He asked me if I ate meat and I said yes. He asked me why and I replied: "Well they're already dead in the supermarket, so it would be a waste not to eat them."
I disagree with testing animals for medical reasons and cosmetics, because...
People volunteer for being tested on for cosmetics and medically, and they get paid a lot of money! So I actually don't see the need for people to test on animals, I understand 'cure for cancer' and all that, but they could still test that on humans that want to get paid and are willing to be tested on! Animals obviously don't want to die! What if there was a species superior to us and they just randomly decided to test on us? That wouldn't be fair! I sort of get really angry about this kind of stuff and I find it hard to explain myself... anyway, those are my thoughts, what are your thoughts/opinions? BB x

[random417]

Ok, here goes. Personally, eating meat and animal testing are 2 different areas.

I'll deal with eating meat first. As a species, we were created with eating meat in mind. Our teeth, our gut, our structure all were designed with eating meat in mind. For me, not eating meat is more unnatural. I understand our minds rising above how we were created, and I can respect that choice in others, but I'm a meat eater. I also have killed my own dinner, not because I'm cruel, exactly the opposite. I don't believe I should separate myself from the process, I owe the animal that gave its life up for my dinner the respect of understanding the process and it's sacrifice.

Testing on animals is more a grey area for me. I kind of believe that we have responsibility towards ethical actions in proportion to the awareness of the animal in question. So more testing is ok on a mouse than on a primate.

In both cases, we have a responsibility to not be needlessly cruel, and to cause as little suffering as possible. Cruelty is never acceptable, and I DO believe our current attitudes are wrong.

In short, for me it's not the ultimate end of eating meat or testing on animals that bothers me, but our cavalier attitude about it.

[YanaKhan]

I remember this argument becoming a bit rough in another thread, but ...
Please remember, this is only my opinion, I don't want to force it on anyone, neither do I judge others based on what they eat. I do believe in personal choice.
I am a vegetarian since January this year. The reason behind my decision was I never really liked meat and being pregnant at the time, I felt sick eating meat once, so I decided I'm not going to eat it anymore. It wasn't for the reasons most vegetarians stop eating meat.
I love animals, and I mean all animals, I do feel they have every right to live and wouldn't kill any animal so I could feed, except if I was starving for a long period of time, perhaps. But then again, nature is cruel and predators kill other animals too. I believe human beings to be predators, despite lacking certain teeth and so on. Besides, there is a great nutritional value to meat.
So yes, I am a vegetarian, but I wouldn't try preaching to others because I know they have a point too and a valid point too.
As for using animals for tests, I don't think anyone can justify it or make it right in any way. First of all, most animals are too different to humans to be certain about the tests, which makes them pointless anyway. Second, I like animals more than most people, so I say, try cosmetics and other things on nasty people.

[random417]

As for using animals for tests, I don't think anyone can justify it or make it right in any way. First of all, most animals are too different to humans to be certain about the tests, which makes them pointless anyway. Second, I like animals more than most people, so I say, try cosmetics and other things on nasty people.

Animals can tell us things about how medicine and things work, but only up to a point. There is validity (if you only consider the science, not the ethics) in stage 1 animal testing. A lot of science is repetition, and you can only test 1 thing at a time on a given subject. There simply aren't enough valid test subjects among nasty people. Remember that only a small percentage of products make it past what are now animal tests.

That being said, cosmetics and non lifesaving drugs, I'm in agreement with you about as far as, animal testing isn't needed, because the products aren't needed.

[random417]

And yes, this has the potential to become heated, let's all keep our cool

[YanaKhan]

Well, like I said, this is only my opinion, so there, I'm keeping it cool
Anyway, I see your point and I admit I'm not too familiar with animal testing at all. But then again, I feel strongly against it, especially in cosmetics and such.
Anything can be validated by scientists, still it doesn't make everything right.
And yes, this has gotten really ugly before, to the point where a certain member stopped posting on the forum.
Yet, I believe we are all reasonable adults (despite age) and we can keep it nice

[LiebeUndLicht]

Thanks for all your responses guys!

And yes, this has the potential to become heated, let's all keep our cool

Yeah, I always try to take into account people's views and try to understand what they think is right and all that, so I won't get angry, I just want to hear other people's opinions. If I thought I was 100% right and everyone else was wrong I would probably never ever post anything online because people always have different ideas. I think arguments only happen when 2 or more people have different opinions and they can't talk about it in a sensible manner. I think we'll be fine but yeah, I always love to hear different people's points of views! Blessed be!

[Siona]

I was a vegetarian and then later a pescatarian for many years. It wasn't primarily for ethical reasons, but it did play a small part - I felt that if I wasn't comfortable with the idea of hunting/killing an animal myself, then I shouldn't be eating it. (That's why I still ate fish, because I grew up fishing, cleaning fish, etc.) I do eat a wider range of meats now, but I try to be careful of the source of the meat, and still make a lot of vegetarian dishes most days.

As far as animal testing, to me cosmetics and medicines are two different areas. I don't really approve of cosmetic testing, it just seems unnecessary. I don't have the same issues with medical testing, though. I understand the role animal testing plays in the development of new drugs (even before the drugs can get to a stage were they could be legally tested on humans), and while I'd certainly like to see developments in technology that make it totally unnecessary, until such a point... well, I guess I just know too many people who've had their lives drastically improved or even saved with such drugs, so I can't totally condemn it, personally.

[LiebeUndLicht]

I do understand what you're saying about the medical things.

As far as animal testing, to me cosmetics and medicines are two different areas. I don't really approve of cosmetic testing, it just seems unnecessary. I don't have the same issues with medical testing, though. I understand the role animal testing plays in the development of new drugs (even before the drugs can get to a stage were they could be legally tested on humans), and while I'd certainly like to see developments in technology that make it totally unnecessary, until such a point... well, I guess I just know too many people who've had their lives drastically improved or even saved with such drugs, so I can't totally condemn it, personally.

It's quite hard for me to make a 100% decision because I can see both sides of the argument.

[Shub Niggurath]

I mostly agree with everything that has been already said above.
I'm not going to discuss the "we were born meat-eaters/vegetarians" topic because we're kind of both at the same time so there's no one right answer to this. For some people eating meat is natural, for others it isn't and in both cases that's totally fine. Especially if someone who eats meat is capable of killing an animal to consume it - I think that's the most responsible and mature thing to do and I really admire people who do it themselves.

Personally I'm vegetarian for years now but I have to admit it was a long process for me to kind of "grow up" to make that final step. When I was a teen I thought it didn't make sense because why would I want to restrict myself? That's what I saw in every vegetarian person I've met before - every one of them was like a martyr, always struggling and "denying themself the pleasure of eating meat for animals' sake".

But then I realized that I wouldn't be able to kill an animal for food so I am a hypocrite. I lived with that perspective of feeling like a hypocrite for a few years. And then, "thanks" to my neurological problems I stopped eating meat just to see if it's going to improve my health. And it did. What I found surprising was that I didn't feel like all the vege people I've met before. I didn't feel like I was restricting myself, like this diet is a cage. I felt liberated. My health improved, my ethics altered a little bit and my consciousness grew to understand some things on a whole new level. I'd say it's a bit similar to ascetic monks situation. People from the outside think that being ascetic is a hard path because you have to deny yourself some things you enjoy. But the truth is that ascetics sacrifice all these things to gain something much, much more rewarding. Higher meditative states, like kensho or samadhi can be much more rewarding than any mundane pleasures. That's what it feels like to me since I gave up on meat. What I thought was going to be a cage turned out to be a whole new perspective to explore and learn from.

I'm not saying that those who eat meat are "worse" in any way or that it's a less rewarding path. It all depends on an individual! One of my friends used to be a vegetarian for years and then one day she decided it wasn't serving her so she started eating meat again. And guess what - she felt the same thing I felt when I stopped eating meat!
To me it doesn't matter who eats what. The only thing I find important is to find out what kind of diet serves you best - both ethically/spiritually and health-wise. I hate when people argue about the diets and I especially hate when those overly-eager vege people try to convert everyone else to their diet. We should make peace, not argue about who has what on their dinner table!

Anyway, when it comes to animal testing I'm strongly against. Not necessarily because we take animals' lives for granted but because I'm against the whole pharmaceutical industry. We've got all the medicines we need already provided by our Mother Nature. The only problem is that it's for free so it wouldn't bring them as much profit as all the useless (more harmful than healing) artificial medicines do. So that's why cannabis is illegal (cures cancer and many other deathly deseases), ibogaine is illegal (cures all addictions, even to heroine), psylocybin is illegal (cures "incurable" migraines) and most of the natural methods of healing, used for thousands of years before the modern medicine appeared, are despised. And the fact of testing all this artificial s... stuff on animals only makes it worse to accept. But that's a topic for another thread I suppose

[SnowCat]

Biologically, humans fall into more of an omnivore category. If I had to kill an animal for my meal, I would probably be a vegan. Or at the very least a pescatarian. As it is, I do thank the animal that gave up its life to provide my food.

Snow

[LiebeUndLicht]

Biologically, humans fall into more of an omnivore category. If I had to kill an animal for my meal, I would probably be a vegan. Or at the very least a pescatarian. As it is, I do thank the animal that gave up its life to provide my food.

Snow

I think that's a good idea, thanking the animal that gave up it's life

[Moonfire]

I personally am a meat eater. I do really care about and love animals and I totally understand why others want to go vegetarian or vegan. But this isn't just how we were made. Hunting and killing takes place among animals too. It's all a part of the circle of life. And since now we are learning that plants have consciousness, who's to say that they don't feel pain or experience things like animals do? In which case, you'd still have to harm something if you want to survive.

However, the way animals are treated in the farms to provide for us is cruel and I don't agree with it. I also will admit that I probably would cry if I had to kill an animal for my food, but I also know that if it was something I had to do to get by, I'd probably do it.

Ultimately, I think its wonderful what vegetarians are doing and I totally respect it. But I do ask the same courtesy to me as well for not following their life style.

Many Blessings~

[LiebeUndLicht]

I personally am a meat eater. I do really care about and love animals and I totally understand why others want to go vegetarian or vegan. But this isn't just how we were made. Hunting and killing takes place among animals too. It's all a part of the circle of life. And since now we are learning that plants have consciousness, who's to say that they don't feel pain or experience things like animals do? In which case, you'd still have to harm something if you want to survive.

However, the way animals are treated in the farms to provide for us is cruel and I don't agree with it. I also will admit that I probably would cry if I had to kill an animal for my food, but I also know that if it was something I had to do to get by, I'd probably do it.

Ultimately, I think its wonderful what vegetarians are doing and I totally respect it. But I do ask the same courtesy to me as well for not following their life style.
Oh wow, I actually really agree with what you said! Two of my friends are vegetarians but they respect others decisions to eat meat.

Many Blessings~

[LadyCoyote]

I wish I could eat meat that was more kosher, because I hate how animals are treated in large companies. But because me was omnivores I do think it's ok if you eat near or not. I have been eating less meat, but sometimes I just can't get the proteins from the food I have near me. I think of the ethics of eating meat kinda iffy, but I think that if I view the question from a cyclical viewpoint it's not that harmful. I eat nutrients in thanks to upkeep my body, just as the animal I are had. It's the same cycle we view with the seasons. Everythig is cyclical. Once I die, I will be the food for the animals of the future.