Not so black and white

[Falcon_Heart27]

I'm used to defending the views of magic and science existing in harmony and being two sides of the same coin.

I love that metaphor dearly, and I think that your views and mine are very similar. You're just much better at putting it into words than I am.

[loona wynd]

I'm used to defending the views of magic and science existing in harmony and being two sides of the same coin.

I love that metaphor dearly, and I think that your views and mine are very similar. You're just much better at putting it into words than I am.

It helps having debates and discussions on how quantum and astrophysics can apply to magic and spiritual philosophies with a college physics instructor. He was actually impressed with my knowledge of basic string and quantum theory. I really need to study it more but I have a few books that are good at outlining the philosophy and the science together.

[bornoftheflame]

Glad I could spark such an intellectual conversation.

[loona wynd]

Glad I could spark such an intellectual conversation.

Do you have any insight into the combination of magical theories and scientific theories and the like? I'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter. You already addressed how for you magic is in the power of the mind and the power of the self. So I was wondering if there was anything more than what you had posted, or if you had any reflections on what has been said.

[Lillady]

Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

I agree with the rest of what you said in your original post, however in my own beliefs (and we all know many of us are on different levels) I have felt, heard and seen the Gods (and Goddesses) at work with my needs and throughout my life. I am not saying you are wrong, just simply stating what I personally believe. I know many feel like I do as well when it comes to our Deities and have experienced things both mentally and physically with them.

[loona wynd]

Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

I agree with the rest of what you said in your original post, however in my own beliefs (and we all know many of us are on different levels) I have felt, heard and seen the Gods (and Goddesses) at work with my needs and throughout my life. I am not saying you are wrong, just simply stating what I personally believe. I know many feel like I do as well when it comes to our Deities and have experienced things both mentally and physically with them.

I agree. I outlined my beliefs in another thread. Basically I believe that all views on the divine are correct and true. I personally have experienced too many different divine beings both unique individuals (Pan, Niord, Diana, Odin, Frigga, Poesiodn, to name a few) and the soft polytheistic Gods. I've experienced too many different types and styles of divine beings that they all must be true in some manner.

I also don't work with my Gods in magic. At least not often. My spell work for day to day work and use is about me and the spirits I work with or just me and my energetic forces. Ritual is the only time I work magic with the Gods.

[bornoftheflame]

I am an avid psychonaut. I've talked to trees and they talked back. I've tasted smelly sounds and felt Japanese colors. I've spoken with mysterious and downright terrifying entities. The most memorable experience I have is with an entity that I call "the pillar" because it first appeared as a pillar of magnificent colors. It told me things that began making sense years later. My point is I'm not denying the reality of the so called gods and goddesses. I'm simply questioning their existence within the fabric of spacetime. How can we know that such entities really exist? And when we equate every mundane experience in life to acts of divine intervention, how can you be sure of anything? Are you even in control? Or is your imagination in the driver seat? Furthermore, what is real? What does it mean to exist? Why do the divine beings appear, in whatever form, to you but not to the next person, and so on? The answer is because you asked for it. You were expecting it, looking for it. So shall it be.

[loona wynd]

I am an avid psychonaut. I've talked to trees and they talked back. I've tasted smelly sounds and felt Japanese colors. I've spoken with mysterious and downright terrifying entities. The most memorable experience I have is with an entity that I call "the pillar" because it first appeared as a pillar of magnificent colors. It told me things that began making sense years later. My point is I'm not denying the reality of the so called gods and goddesses. I'm simply questioning their existence within the fabric of spacetime. How can we know that such entities really exist? And when we equate every mundane experience in life to acts of divine intervention, how can you be sure of anything? Are you even in control? Or is your imagination in the driver seat? Furthermore, what is real? What does it mean to exist? Why do the divine beings appear, in whatever form, to you but not to the next person, and so on? The answer is because you asked for it. You were expecting it, looking for it. So shall it be.

You pretty much outlined the reason I call myself an Omnitheist. Basically because the divine forces in nature appear so differently to every one they must all be real to an extent. I believe that there is truth in the view of Gods as Archetypes as well as individual beings, I just hold they are both two separate valid views on the divine. I've experienced enough different energetic forces to know that the forces are real.

Now I believe that the different divine personalities eventually were created through worship. The forces behind the beings existed before, but through worship in different cultural senses different Gods were born. This is why all the Gods of war while they all have vastly different personalities in general, there is something of a common trait uniting them. I believe each individual names God with mythology is an individual being.

I also believe that there is a God of War who basically embodies all the other Gods of war. The same can be said for Gods of love, motherhood, magic, etc. They are also individual beings, but their essence is the combined essence of all the other Gods of those associations. So a Goddess of love in this case here would have elements of Freya, Aphrodite, and other Gods of love.

I also believe in an individual spirit force that lives in every thing. This force I believe is in essence the force of Magic. It is the energy we tap into and raise when we cast spells. Though the energetic current is different in each stone, herb, animal, and human. That makes the different spirits.

Basically I believe that these forces exist outside of us. Their personalities and appearances are created by us in our mind. So I see magic and the divine in all forms as both created by us to an extent as well as existing long before us and separate from us as well as beyond us.

This is why the mind is a part of the soul.

[Seraphin]

Now I believe that the different divine personalities eventually were created through worship. The forces behind the beings existed before, but through worship in different cultural senses different Gods were born. This is why all the Gods of war while they all have vastly different personalities in general, there is something of a common trait uniting them. I believe each individual names God with mythology is an individual being.

I also believe that there is a God of War who basically embodies all the other Gods of war. The same can be said for Gods of love, motherhood, magic, etc. They are also individual beings, but their essence is the combined essence of all the other Gods of those associations. So a Goddess of love in this case here would have elements of Freya, Aphrodite, and other Gods of love.

I am a hardcore polytheist. So to me the Deities are all very unique, distinct and separate, even those who share the same archetype. I feel that identifying Deities together is like telling me that I'm the same as my best friend because we're both photographers. We just have the same profession and probably similar education, but we're not the same person.

Plus I'm a panentheist, which means that I believe in an overarching, interpenetrating "Divine Force" which Deities, humans, animals and other creations are all linked into and which interconnects us all. But I don't believe that the Divine Force is sentient. I believe it's very much non-sentient but that we're all tapped into it and draw our life energies and powers from it.

I believe the Deities archetypes concept can be likened to a fiber-optic lamp in which we envision the "Divine Force" is the "base", and the hundreds or maybe thousands points of myriad lights that emanate from that base are all connected and consequently, part of these Divine Force. The thousands "points of light" represent the "Divine Beings" or the Deities. Without the base there would be no light.


Source: http://www.coolthings.com.au/fibre-opti ... phing.html

The Divine Force didn't divide itself in half in order to manifest as Nergal in Ancient Mesopotamia while Hades in Greece and Osiris in Egypt. The Force used the "form" of Nergal, Hades or Osiris to feel it's essence in a personal way that the Mesopotamian, Greeks and Ehyptians could understand with their cultural thought and senses. This is the same how the Orishas in Yoruba religion I believe works. Orishas are spirit forms that reflect one of the Divine Forces and Manifestations. Many Orishas have found their way throughout the world and are now expressed in other cultures' tradition.

Nergal, Hades and Osiris like any other Gods (such as Mesoptamian Maweth and Greek Thanatos), had Their own mind and Their own will and Their own personality, but They have the same job and responsibility since They are empowered by the same "Divine Force."

I also believe in an individual spirit force that lives in every thing. This force I believe is in essence the force of Magic. It is the energy we tap into and raise when we cast spells. Though the energetic current is different in each stone, herb, animal, and human. That makes the different spirits.

Like you, I also believe that the "Divine Beings" or "Deities" influence us by means of "Spirit Forces", and these forces dwell in nature. All the things found in nature affect all levels of life (Plant and Animal Kingdom).

Once we learn to tune ourselves to these forces, we may now clarify:

• the uniqueness of the Force, whether other energies from other things such as herbs or stones, exist or it is the only one;
• the nature of the Force, whether energies can benefit or harm you;
• our relationship with the Force, are we going to use it for ourselves or or others.

In order for a person to clarify these things, he should perform the work related to the Force. This is the unification of all the energies surrounding the particular thing you are working with (herb, stone, animal), all the various energies into one Force.

This work is actually what I define as Magick. To me, magick is not just spells and incantations. It's not something of the mouth. It needs a deepest level. It's something that has occurred in our desire for which there can be no other answer than the thing desired for. And all of our actions purposely create a need specifically for the closeness to both the Divine and Spirit Force.

But there's a condition, only if we have a strong will, of course magick will work. Our will, which is a vessel, opened a place in which perception of the Divine Force and Spirit Force can occur, so it does occur. I believe it's a principle. It happens. The answer to your spells depends totally on the will and belief within us.

I suppose I have really just rambled and not contributed much at all... Hee . But thanks for listening... I mean, reading...

[Isis3Anubis]

Why do some magickal traditions work better for some than it does for others? The answer is because magickal experiences are purely individualistic. There is no "correct way", only what feels right for you (but of course you should practice safety when, for example, working with fire or sharp objects.) Dedication rites are good and pantheons are fine but magick always starts from within. The desire for change, the will to make something happen. That's what magick is. You can't "cast a spell" to attract money into your life then sit on your couch and expect to get rich. Not in this world, not in reality. Doing is magick and magick is doing. Herbs, symbols, chants, tools: all things meant to enhance and focus will and desire. It's the union between practitioner and ritual tools that creates results. The truth is there is no "magickal energy", no mysterious force causing things to happen. It's you. You're more in control of your reality than anything else. What you do now directly and intimately affects what happens next. The law of cause and effect. You've probably heard that "everything happens for a reason". Physicists call that Newton's third law of quantum mechanics. Occult practitioners call it witchcraft and attribute it to the things that happen beyond our awareness. The Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

I wonder if a personal code of ethics is enough. Some people don't consider cause and effect which leads to miscommunications, misunderstandings and blatant toying with people. Some people practice the Wiccan rede and others like the NSA will overstep boundaries because they feel they are more intelligent and therefore don't care what others think. They believe it is their right, that being more knowledgeable somehow makes them impervious to repercussions, or that whatever happens will be anyway. Discordianism and chaos magick intrigues me in this way but as someone who has been burned more than once by experimenting, I will respectfully avoid these practices.
As someone who believes ethics should replace religious beliefs of right and wrong, it is just common sense to practice treating people fairly and not like playthings of the gods.

[Seraphin]

Our will and desire are the things that makes magick real. We attract the forces we think and we want, whether we say it or not. It's the Law of Attraction. "Like attracts like". It's like the theory of vibrations, similar energies or vibrations attract themselves to one another.

Spells and charms, however,are one of the keys to the achievement of any goal we have. Realize that thoughts are matter, thoughts have energy, thoughts have power.

I believe all kinds of magickians are following these simple steps in performing magick:

• Be sure you know what it is you really want. What is your goal specifically?
• You have to do go into a relaxed, passive meditative state. Once you have reached the meditative state, visualize or form an image or symbol of your goal using all your ways of perception.
• You must visualize your goal as already achieved and not how you are going to achieve it.
• To make magick successful, there are three important factors you must keep in mind. You must have a strong desire for your goal, you must believe in the method of magick you are doing and you must expect the result to happen without any doubt at all.

So to me, performing and experiencing magick need not conform to the practices, rituals, and code of ethos of a particular religious path. One may practice magick completely alone and follows no official rules or practices because it's all in the mind. And every mindful magickian is his own authority. His relationship with the Divine and the Universe is his own perception of what is good, true and beautiful.

Therefore, anybody who has a mind can definitely perform magick. It's not a monopoly of a few highly gifted mutants . Given some practice and discipline, anyone can do magick!

Magick also explained to me the moral law which states that we should do what is right and avoid doing what is wrong do bad not because of fear of the wrath of a vengeful God and the torments of hell, but because doing wrong actions is a perversion of the nature and retards our spiritual progress. Any wrong doing come back to us in full force. It's not a question of somebody is judging and punishing us. It's merely a natural or physical need to restore the harmony in nature which we have by our wrong actions disturbed.

[Seraphin]

Well I just want to make it clear that I'm not against science nor to the method it's using, with which I have no quarrel. I don't think that we can provide more theories and ideas to improve the methodology of science as far as validating "physical reality" is concerned. I believe it's already complete and perfect. It has proven its significance and effectiveness for centuries. Were it not for science, we would probably still be residing in caves, doodling on the walls and using flintstones to create fire.

However what really irks me is Science ignored and still ignoring a great deal of other realities and human experiences because it's based on the following unstated assumptions:

• Our perception of the world is derived only from our five senses namely sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste.
• There is a clear distinction between the objective world and subjective experience.
• The mind cannot influence the physical world.
• What we call consciousness is only a product of biochemical process. Non-living things such as stones, woods and dried herbs don't have consciousness.
• We can only know the present moment and cannot tell future events, except that which can be extensively studied from known causes and past historical data.
• All things are compose of matter and energy. Therefore spirits and subtle energies do not and cannot exist in reality.

The above presumptions underlying the scientific method have become the "only" accepted and recognized means by which reality of anything is proven and confirmed. Everything else outside of these is imaginary and lacking of objective existence. The trouble with orthodox scientific method is that its interpretations are true and real only as it pertains to physical reality. It doesn't include the spiritual, astral and magickal world. That's its main limitation.

And when scientists try to apply the scientific experimental method to the things that are subtle, psychic or magickal in nature, they get into trouble in trying to explain them analytically and reasonably. It's like the Chinese kid in our local news who likely watched Mary Poppins over and over and tried to jump from their condo using an umbrella as parachute. She fell to the ground dead. Why? She was using the wrong tool outside of what it was designed for.

[Agarwaen]

I have been reading all everyone has posted, and I'm very intrigued. You're all intelligent and above my level of education, otherwise I'm might have joined in on the lovely discussion. As it stands, I would like to ask what books you've read on the subject, aside from the aforementioned Kybalion. I have a year left of high school, and my skills in math are too low for me to take Physics. I plan to major in fine or studio arts with a minor in creative writing, so a high school chemistry class is to be the highest level of science I shall partake in.

[loona wynd]

I have been reading all everyone has posted, and I'm very intrigued. You're all intelligent and above my level of education, otherwise I'm might have joined in on the lovely discussion. As it stands, I would like to ask what books you've read on the subject, aside from the aforementioned Kybalion. I have a year left of high school, and my skills in math are too low for me to take Physics. I plan to major in fine or studio arts with a minor in creative writing, so a high school chemistry class is to be the highest level of science I shall partake in.

The Temple tradition has the following books to explain the physics and philosophy

The Kyballion (Philosophy)
The Tao of Physics (both)
Stalking the Wild Pendulum (science)
The Holographic Universe (science)

[Agarwaen]

Thank you, loona wynd, the gesture is very appreciated.