Ceremonial Magick practices in Wicca and Witchcraft

[loona wynd]

@Loona, do you know what goes on in the higher degrees of the OTO? Your fiancé wouldn't mind?

I really hadn't looked past possibly becoming a priestess in the order. So I can't really say. I honestly though didn't really expect to get to a real high degree in the order. I never even managed to meet the requirements for the minerval degree in the local group so I think its a moot point to be honest. So to answer your question I don't know.

[loona wynd]

With the idea of streamlining, in my case, comes the idea that ritual itself is just another tool, and that I should be able to do without some of the old friends if you will...

This fits a lot of what I have been told about being truly adept at magic. When you are truly adept at magic and can work it really well you don't need the ritual. You don't even need the formal props or tools. You can just with the power of your will and mind cast a spell and create the changes you need or desire in the world. How that applies to Ceremonial magic I am not really sure to be honest.

I did a circle casting without a Opening By Watchtower for the first time in years the other day, for example. I know I'm working more simply than I will, but I have to remind myself I can, so to speak.

I don't open the watch towers in my circles. I just call on the elemental forces most times. The only time I call the watch towers is when I follow the script of the few BTW ritual setups I have used in the past. The rest of the time I cast the circles without the watch towers but with the elements themselves.

I have a tradition, to build mind body spirit, that I always have a goal in each. Right now, I'm working with my body on quitting smoking. My body is a little pissed at me right now, but when we've recovered, we're going to start exercising again.

That good for you. Good luck with the quitting of the smoking. I need to rework my exercise stuff again. I have an exercise CD that is called the "Kettle Bell Goddess workout". Through out that workout CD there are setups of sets and exercises with a Kettlebell in the names of various Goddesses. I want to try and use that to physically connect my body to some Goddesses. The Kettlebell when worked properly will exercise basically every mussel group in your body. I also have a Kundalini Yoga DVD that I love which gave me exercise but also had an impact on me spiritually.

My mind goal honestly I dont really have one. I think It's going to be to start looking at a few of the science books I have been recommended to read as part of my training in the Temple tradition. In the Temple tradition there are associations and views of magic and science working together or being basically two sides of the same coin. So there is a semi scientific way to the approaches we have. Hell the psychic development training has an entire section on the physical psychological and physiological things that happen at the different brain wave levels (different meditative states and ways of consciousness).

Spiritually right now I am reconnecting to my self and my spiritual side. I am working on developing my ritual skills again. I am also working on developing a relationship with two new spirit allies as well as deepening my relationship with my ancestors and my Dragon guides. This also involves working on my psychic development and visualization skills so I can trance work better.

Finally magically my goal is to enrich my knowledge of magical traditions through exploring and learning Hoodoo for a start and I may delve into evocation and thought form development as well. For now though I am focusing on learning Hoodoo. I am going to focus on cleansing and uncrossing, healing, and protection work. Though I am going to do prosperity and luck magic as well. The main idea I have basically found with Hoodoo is to work the spells and rituals to have happiness, peace, prosperity, and abundance in your life. So I will work any magic I feel I need to obtain those goals. Though I think working mostly for uncrossing, healing, and protection is a great way to start. Plus the spirits I am going to be working with are associated with those things

[-Dark-Moon-]

You might want to look into that, Loona. If you call sex magic with multiple partners a moot point, I guess don't bother.

It's a little naive to have aspirations of becoming a Priestess of an Order when you have no idea of what the central theme of that Order might be.

There are good reasons why anyone in a relationship is advised by the OTO to join 'with' their partner.

[loona wynd]

You might want to look into that, Loona. If you call sex magic with multiple partners a moot point, I guess don't bother.

The moot point was that I haven't even met the requirements for the entry degree of the order. So if I haven't even been able to do that I guess getting to higher degrees is a moot point. I do know I would have sponsors if I ever did attend the social events and a few of the open classes (required to get to know you before you can present for the minerval degree in the local OTO group). That was the moot point-that I haven't even after 5 years of invites been able to make it to the minerval degree.

As for the sex magic with multiple partners my fiance' and I are actually open when it comes to sex and being with other people. So long as we are safe its not really a big thing for us. We aren't exclusive in that regards. We are open to being with others if we have the chance and opportunities. So long as we are honest about it and up front about it and safe its not really a big deal. We are even possibly open to being in a Poly relationship with the right people.

I have my own issues with sex work that I am working on. Its been a barrier for BTW work and initiation. When you are molested as a baby your innocence is taken from you and issues with sex arise later in your life. Because of my molestation and abuse in the past I am ashamed of sexuality most of the time. I enjoy sex and I can have it and enjoy it when I do have it. I just can't really articulate my needs and desires.

I work healing sex magic on a regular basis I also combine this with kink magic and its been effective for healing my issues. The wounds I dont think will ever be gone and I think there will always be some sort of discomfort in accepting sexual desires. As part of working on this and accepting my body as a sexual thing and me as a sexual person I do artistic nude modeling as well as boudoir modeling. In some ways perhaps working more magic with sexual energies may be helpful as I would be engaging that aspect of myself more often.

It's a little naive to have aspirations of becoming a Priestess of an Order when you have no idea of what the central theme of that Order might be.

I never said I had aspirations of becoming a priestess. I said I had looked over the layout of the order and some of the requirements. I had been given reading lists of material to study. I saw the outline and how hierarchical the organization is. All the information I have had was and is available on the main OTO site for the US grand Lodge.

When I said I had looked at the basic requirements I was looking at time in the order, service requirements and the like. No where on the site did there list mentions of sex magic with multiple partners. It was basically role in the order and the two different arms of the OTO. Again there is and was no information regarding sex magick practices anywhere on the pages.

I was looking at it as a possible spiritual path and spiritaul development and nothing more. I'm not naive enough to say that I knew everything I would need to know before joining. I was given materials to look at and books to read. I was also invited to open classes and Gnostic Masses. I know that there is more to learn. I also know that there are probably things they don't have open about themselves and their practices which are only learned after initiation. I do have enough information to judge if I am interested in possibly physically getting to work with them.

There are good reasons why anyone in a relationship is advised by the OTO to join 'with' their partner.

I think its probably the same reason why BTW initiates are often asked exactly how their partners feel about sexual contact and symbolism in the rites of BTW. BTW rites and initiation rites specifically do involve sexual symbolism and contact to an extent. In some traditions it has been said that for second and third degree initiations the act of the Great Rite in BTW is actual rather than symbolic. How accurate that is I can't say. However it does basically go without saying that there is a lot of sex magic and sex symbolism used in BTW.

[loona wynd]

Why would you want to introject such a dysfunctional, misogynistic personality as Aleister Crowleys? There are prettier birds in the forest, IMHO.

You can say the same thing about Gerald Gardner. It wasn't uncommon to be misogynistic at that period of time. Basically like anything else I look into the culture of the times and of the world and see how things are.

As for why Crowley? He was a brilliant man and occultist. yes he was freaky and a drug fiend. He was still brilliant. He did a lot for the occult. Gardner wasn't the only witch who he influenced. Sybil Leek was also influenced by him to an extend. In her book Diary of a witch she mentions several times the fond memories of table top discussions her father had with Crowley and how she would engage in those discussions as well.

[-Dark-Moon-]

possibly becoming a priestess in the order

Whether this was your true intention or not, this part of your post implies looking at the role of Priestess which is why I raise the central theme of the OTO, sperm-gnosis. Whatever you intended, I think it's important for everyone to fully know and understand what they might be getting into when joining a group of people they don't know.

This is for the benefit of everyone reading this post, especially young people who might be only looking at magical attainment on a superficial level, concerning themselves with degrees and titles over doing the real inner work. You seem to be advocating promiscuity as a panacea for trauma, and I would gently suggest that this might be a little misguided, ie a knee jerk response to pain rather than actual healing. I'm not bashing alternative lifestyles here, just questioning the validity of that assumption since you brought it up.

There has been a kind of 'McDonaldisation' of 'occulture', of late, with many keen to get their taste of 'spiritual enlightenment' from the latest 'trendy' movement or 'guru' the counterculture (or bookstore) has to offer, for a fee, of course.

To me, this type of structure is only useful if you need someone else to tell you how to think.

Perhaps ...'we will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last Priest.' Dennis Diderot

Always remember that Crowley died alone, estranged from his family and children, a lonely heroin addict in a boarding house in rainy old England. Not where Id like to end up really.

I guess the 'demons' got him in the end.

[loona wynd]

Whether this was your true intention or not, this part of your post implies looking at the role of Priestess which is why I raise the central theme of the OTO. Whatever you intended, I think it's important for everyone to fully know and understand what they might be getting into when joining a group of people they don't know.

And you ignored where I said I knew members of the order. I have spent time with people in the order. I have done a ritual with a few members of the order. So while they were not order rituals and practices (these interactions were in the form of a BTW outercourt/open ritual) I did have interactions with some in the order. So I did and do know people in the order. There is also the requirement in the minerval degree prior to initiation that you attend several public social gatherings, classes, and a few gnostic masses open to the public. This is done so you do get to know them and know if you will work well with them or not.

I was following the instructions given to me by the leader of the local OTO. I was given a list of reading materials and websites to search and read. What I had read got me interested in the group. I liked to church like organization structure of the order and I liked the structure they had set up. When I said I was looking into the priesthood of that order I was doing the only research you can uninitiated. I was looking at where in the ranks of the hierarchy the priest and priestess were as well as the other positions/degree ranks in the order as I saw they had a organizational status that looked sort of like the Catholic Church with lay people, decons, and the like to the higher status.

Before I seriously considered initiation and training I wanted to familiarize myself with the lodge history and culture. I wanted to see what sort of work was involved with becoming heads of orders and really taking part in that church and order. I knew it was an entirely different religion than the witchcraft I was familiar with. What I had been reading and the rituals I had read seemed beautiful and worth exploring.

I wasn't going to get involved with a magical group if I had no understanding of the way it was set up. Knowing how the lodge works as an organization for me is as important as understanding the actual rites of the lodge. Knowing or being familiar with the rites of the organization is the other side of the coin when it comes to the preparation. Obviously I had not read the materials as closely as I thought I had when I was given the materials list.

This is for the benefit of everyone reading this post, especially young people who might be only looking at magical attainment on a superficial level, concerning themselves with degrees and titles over doing the real inner work.

My understanding is that you don't get the degrees and the titles if you don't do the work. If you ever thought that was my intent you are highly mistaken. I was looking at the lodge for the same reason I was looking at covens of various traditions. I was looking for a way to have face to face fellowship while doing spiritual work. The fellowship and the bonding after church is something I miss. I know that lodges and covens would provide that fellowship for me.

You seem to be advocating promiscuity as a panacea for trauma,

Not at all. That paragraph was all about me and my work. I was saying that by engaging in sexual activity with other people I may be able to overcome the sense of shame I have regarding sexual needs and desires. Its a remark on personal healing work and nothing more.

I would gently suggest that this might be a little misguided, ie a knee jerk response to pain rather than actual healing.

Maybe for some it would be. For most people I wouldn't advise being promiscuous. For most people having a stable relationship to work with the trauma is all they need and recommended. For many people it can also cause them more issues. For myself its not a big thing. We are in an open relationship where if we are honest and let them know about it, its not really a big deal. It just needs to be SSC (Safe, sane, Consensual).

There has been a kind of 'McDonaldisation' of 'occulture', of late, with many keen to get their taste of 'spiritual enlightenment' from the latest 'trendy' movement or 'guru' the counterculture (or bookstore) has to offer, for a fee, of course.

Well I do understand why there are fees for workshops at metaphysical centers. You have to pay for the rental of the space and for the time of the instructor as well. I do think that some of them are overpriced but there is nothing wrong with attending workshops at local bookstores and metaphysical centers. These workshops for many people are the only way they can get face to face training and education.

I do know what you are talking about though. I am not one of those people. I've been doing the spiritual work I have off and on for 15 years. I say off and on because my mental health occasionally gets in the way of my practices. I always manage to bring myself back to it though. Its often difficult and often takes a lot more work than I would like but in the end I always come back to my practices.

It was at least five years if not more ago that I learned the LBRP from the leader of the OTO at a local Pagan Pride Day. I do attend basically any workshop that I think is interesting or that I think I will get something out of. The idea is that by going to as many different workshops as I can I will learn practices from many different sources and be able to find my own way and use the information as is fitting in my practice.

To me, this type of structure is only useful if you need someone else to tell you how to think.

So you find no value in having teachers or attending workshops?

Always remember that Crowley died alone, estranged from his family and children, a lonely heroin addict in a boarding house in rainy old England. Not where Id like to end up really.

Poor choices on his part for most of it. I'm not saying he was a good man. All I was saying is that he was a brilliant occultist. Just because he was a terrible person to most of society doesn't mean that his occult teachings and works aren't valuable. You don't have to like a persons personality to admit that they did have skills and knowledge.

Gardner was a creepy old man. You don't see people attacking his teaching because of it though. I see Crowley in the same way. There may be things about their personalities you dont' like. That doesn't mean that they don't have something to teach that could be valuable.

Message from the Mod Team : part of this post was removed due to sexual content, which is not allowed as per forum rules