Ceremonial Magick practices in Wicca and Witchcraft

[random417]

Ok, something I understand as widespread, but I'm not really sure how widespread, is practices which have their origin in Ceremonial Magick practices within the Wiccan and Witchcraft community. I'd like to see what the group here can come up with.

First off, because there's some disagreement with terms, FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS TOPIC, let's settle on definitions for all of those things.

1. Wicca - Earth based dualistic religious and spiritual practice having it's origin in the material put out by Gerald Gardner. Including but not limited to Gardnerian, Alexandrian and Feri traditions, as well as 1734 and Dianic traditions.

2. Witchcraft - Another Earth based religious and spiritual practice, also dualistic, but not linked directly to the teachings of Gerald Gardner.

*I consider Wicca to be the Craft equal to the Catholic Church, and Wicca to be the Craft answer to Protestantism. I wouldn't consider one to be better or worse than the other, they just have kind of a different focus.

3. Ceremonial Magick - A magickally based philosophical and spiritual system, usually, but not necessarily accompanied by a monotheistic religious viewpoint. The magicks of a Ceremonial tradition are usually rooted in the traditions and influences of the late 19th and early 20th century, such as the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucian traditions, and Thelema, and also the teachings of Qabalah, Enochian traditions, and various Medieval and Renaissance grimoires.

I know that most everyone is at least a little uncomfortatble with those definitions. To be honest, I don't love them either, but I think they're close enough to work with.

Alright, Witchcraft by our definition is a looser tradition. It also contains less ceremonial elements than Wicca, and is less formalized. Let's look at Wicca first.

We're lucky in that the Gardnerian BOS is published. I could even find it online, so I didn't need to go digging. I'll be using that as a source of most of my info on here, although as I'm not super familiar, I would welcome knowledgeable input. Other sources I know I'll use would be The Book of the Law and possibly the Gnostic Mass

First off, we have the circle casting. Not a whole lot that's super ceremonial, except I don't believe the tradition has anything in it about how to concecrate tools, so it's assumed that one already knows how to do that. The only available material would have been of a ceremonial bent I believe. The pentagram used in Gardnerian work i also the Invoking Earth pentagram from the ceremonial tradition, but no matter how you draw it, it's going to be one of them, I believe the choice was made deliberately.

Of course I've got a bit more, but this should be enough to get the discussion going, I think

[loona wynd]

Can you explain and expand on why you place Feri and 1734 among Wicca? The initiates I have met and had discussions with of both of these traditions have no association with Wicca and don't even really see a connection between Wicca and those paths. I am aware that Doreen Valeinete became a member of the 1734 tradition but that was after her work with Gardner. So I am interested in your connection with those traditions and Wicca especially with the connection to ceremonial magic.

[random417]

I suppose I should clarify a little. Gardner is the primary force behind Wicca as opposed to Witchcraft, but I don't believe the only origin.
The attempt was to seperate the more structured, or (and I don't mean this in a bad way, but I can't come up with another word for this) dogmatic traditions, as Wicca, and more loosely structured, flexible traditions as Witchcraft. Honestly, I wish there were another way to differentiate, as Wicca is loaded with specific meaning. Now there's another reason, but I'm given to understand that within the traditions that you aren't questioning, Gardnerian and Alexandrian specifically, this is considered a concealed Mystery... While Witchcraft traditions are dualistic, and Wicca is nominally dualistic, there's a concept in all of these traditions, spoken of or not of a Godhead that trancends the dualism. It's a part of the teaching and the Mysteries. THAT more than anything is why I put those in there, but with it considered a Mystery in some of those traditions, even if it's out, I didn't want to be the one to out it, so to speak, unless someone asked.

Also, to be fair, I know next to nothing about 1734, other than it's link to Cochrane. Now, I didn't mention Cochrane specifically mostly because my understanding is that his tradition is pretty much gone.

Also, be kind, remember I am actually an outsider to Wicca and Witchcraft, and often the terms are used interchangeably, or at least appear to. Honestly, if you can break it down for me, as to what counts as what, I'd be ever so grateful. I'll admit to being unsure a little bit.

Mostly, the goal in separating them here was to treat the "traditionalist" approach with more ceremonial aspects differently from the less traditionalist approach, which likely doesn't contain as many ceremonial aspects, but the ones it does become quite central to the practice.

[-Dark-Moon-]

The thing I don't get is why Christians practice Wicca instead of CM. You are either monotheistic or polytheistic, you can't really be both? They're probably just practicing folk magic anyhow I guess. Don't worry about getting too bogged down in definitions, looking forward to the general info you're posting. Thanks.

[random417]

I guess the Christian Wicca thing is a result of wanting a simpler form of magick than CM. There's not really a simple option for monotheistic practitioners. I do disagree though, soft polytheism can sometimes kind of be both

[loona wynd]

I suppose I should clarify a little. Gardner is the primary force behind Wicca as opposed to Witchcraft, but I don't believe the only origin.

This I agree with. Gardner created Wicca. Gardner's writings enabled other witches to come out and start talking about their practices or at least be a little more open. Doreen Valiente has commented how after Gardner's work was published he was inundated with letters from people all over thinking they were the last witches out there. So Gardner paved the way for witchcraft to become the force that it is today. To be honest though I don't think he ever thought it would become what it is now and how widespread witchcraft has become. He did write those books in order to preserve the information he thought would be forever lost and now we have more information than we know what to do with. So I think his desire was covered and accomplished lol.

The attempt was to seperate the more structured, or (and I don't mean this in a bad way, but I can't come up with another word for this) dogmatic traditions, as Wicca, and more loosely structured, flexible traditions as Witchcraft.

And I can understand that. I come from a religious tradition of Witchcraft that is not Wicca but has some Wicca flavor to it (see the second degree material or The Outer Temple of witchcraft.

Honestly, I wish there were another way to differentiate, as Wicca is loaded with specific meaning.

I see Wicca has having two forms. The first form is the traditional style which is defined as an: (an excerpt from an article on my blog)

So what is Wicca? Well the shortest description of Wicca is: Wicca is a religion where every member is clergy. All initiates are priests and priestesses to the God and Goddess of Wicca. Wicca is also an:

*Inititory
*Lineage
*Oathbound
*Orthopraxy
*Mystery
*experiential
*fertility
*witchcult

Source.

This type of Wicca has very few traditions and the list includes:


*Gardnerian
*Alexandrian
*Mohsian
*Central Valley (a collective term for the traditions named below)
-Silver Crescent
-Kingstone
-Daoine Coire
-Assembly of Wicca
-Majestic

It should be noted that if you are a member of one Traditional Wicca tradition you will not always be recognized as such in a different tradition. They may recognize your previous service to the Gods of Wicca as it was in that tradition but if because of many factors you have to move and leave the first or original coven you have practiced and have to join another tradition you will most likely need to start again at the first degree. It's not an insult to your previous knowledge work or experience. Its simply making you begin at being the first degree in that tradition so you can learn their ways (and yes there are slight variances within the various traditions).

Now the modern style of Wicca is less strict yet still structured. There is still a God and a Goddess. They still have the 8 sabbats. The myth of the year is similar though not understood always within the same context. Here there are differences. You can be solitary and covens are not a requirement and you can dedicate yourself to the Gods. These drastic differences make a slightly different religion yet because the core of the God and Goddess and the concepts behind the wheel of the year are so closely related they are basically the same.

The other difference is that in the large scale of things this style of Wicca is largely soft polytheists meaning that all Gods are one God and all Goddesses one Goddess. Traditional Wicca is more along the lines of hard polytheism where the God and Goddess of Wicca are a specific God and Goddess and other Gods may exist along side them but they are the central focus. This is why many traditional Wiccans also follow another path working with other Gods in different cultures. The worship is separate of course but the Gods of Wicca are not jealous nor does the religion preclude the worship of other Gods so long as the God and Goddess of Wicca are still worshiped properly.

If you change the style of ritual or just focus on a God or Goddess the practice is no longer Wicca. Its a form of religious witchcraft but not always Wicca. if you worship multiple Gods and Goddesses instead of a Lord and Lady or God and Goddess specifically you are practicing a form of religious witchcraft. Anglo-Saxon traditional witchcraft falls into this category as does Strega and Irish Traditional Witchcraft.

Now there's another reason, but I'm given to understand that within the traditions that you aren't questioning, Gardnerian and Alexandrian specifically, this is considered a concealed Mystery... While Witchcraft traditions are dualistic, and Wicca is nominally dualistic, there's a concept in all of these traditions, spoken of or not of a Godhead that trancends the dualism. It's a part of the teaching and the Mysteries.

This is more a teaching of the modern and less traditional style of Wicca. Here there is often a great spirit that birthed the God and Goddess so that humanity could understand the overall spirit better as by itself it is to large for humans to understand. In some ways this is how the Hermetic concept of THE ALL and the philosophies in the Kyballion can be applied to modern practices of Witchcraft.

The concept of THE ALL or the great united spirit is one of the holdovers from the ceremonial magic aspects within both styles of Wicca. Not every style has that focus. Many of the books hint at that possibility but focus on the God and Goddess because those are the mysteries they have experienced. The God and Goddess in this case are creator Gods. My understanding is that in traditional Wicca is this not the case and that they are specific Gods with specific roles that are not necessarily almighty and all powerful styles.

THAT more than anything is why I put those in there, but with it considered a Mystery in some of those traditions, even if it's out, I didn't want to be the one to out it, so to speak, unless someone asked.

The reason I asked is because Cochrane railed publically against Gardner and being associated with his craft. It was actually the oponents of Gardner who named his tradition and style Gardnerian Wicca. It was originally a slur and slam against them. Gardners practices and approached were radical in the world of witches at this point. because Garner was public Cochrane could now mention that they were not the only practices out there. This is actually where the Cochrane letters come from.

Wicca is definitely a mystery based religion as is religious witchcraft. Traditional witchcraft is also mystery based but takes a some what different approach. Traditional Witchcraft such as 1734 and Feri as well as Roebuck do not have the layovers or influence of Crowley that Wicca does. They still work structured rituals but without the style that is connected to Crowley and directly tied to ceremonial magic.

Also, to be fair, I know next to nothing about 1734, other than it's link to Cochrane. Now, I didn't mention Cochrane specifically mostly because my understanding is that his tradition is pretty much gone.

That's not really true. 1734 does live on. Though the tradition is mostly hidden. They do not go looking or advertising on forums and boards most of the time as many of the elders still remember the way it was before and seek to keep it as such. Also by keeping mostly hidden they have been able to basically keep out of the influence of the Wicca styled witchcraft and have been able to keep their teachings more traditional.

There are streams here in the US. There are also a few traditions in the US that started out as 1734 witchcraft but then became something else here. Some of these groups (the Roebuck tradition being one of them) have dual memberships and traditions. As the founders of Roebuck are empowered to teach their clan practices as they were taught as well as their own tradition and style with some of their initiates they get initiation into both practices.

Many people are afraid of traditional witchcraft. Its a "darker" tradition and style of practice. There is a large influence and practice of working with the dead, the underworld, and the powers of death to transform. In this way I can see why people would be scared and afraid of traditional styles of witchcraft. The witch master is a God of fear and the witch Goddess is the Goddess of life and death in traditional witchcraft. These are very powerful cthonic forces that are not to be triffled with.

Also, be kind, remember I am actually an outsider to Wicca and Witchcraft, and often the terms are used interchangeably, or at least appear to. Honestly, if you can break it down for me, as to what counts as what, I'd be ever so grateful. I'll admit to being unsure a little bit.

This is true. Wicca has become the basic catch all phrase in most of the books and websites out there for any form of religious witchcraft. Wicca then basically also becomes defined by following the rede, the ritual structure, the God and the Goddess. There is an overwhelming soft polytheism tendency within Wicca in the modern sense.

I believe I have outlined above clearly what Wicca entails. Its a specific style and type of Witch God and Goddess. It is a style of religious witchcraft. The practice has alot of influences from various philosophies and religions across the world including Norse, Celtic, Ceremonial Magic, and the use of some ritual tools (such as where the name athame for the blade originated). The teachings and philosophies as we understand Wicca in both styles can be traced to Gerald Gardner.

If the practice is a religion where the use of witchcraft is central to the worship of the Gods then it is a form of religious witchcraft. Strega is a form of this. Strega worships the ancient Italian Gods and Goddesses. While some focus specifically on Lucifer, Diana, and Aradia the tradition does involve more Gods than those. Anglo-Saxon witchcraft also falls into this category as they worship multiple Gods within their practice. While again the focus may be on a God and Goddess pair the other Gods are worshiped and acknowledge as well.

Witchcraft as it stands is a magical craft and practice. It is a philosophy and way of life. It can be religious but it does not have to be tied to religion. Folk magic traditions make up the base of the magical craft and practices as do home remedies and crafts. In many cases it has a base in an animistic spiritual practice and works on spiritual beliefs but this is not always the case. Witchcraft is basically the use of magic for spiritual and practical uses within European folklore.

Hoodoo is in a similar boat as witchcraft as a craft. Many people use Voodoo and Hoodoo interchangeably. One is a religion the other is a craft and practice. Voodoo uses Hoodoo in some of the rituals and practices to honor the Orishas or spirits. Hoodoo however can also be practiced seperatly. Hoodoo is a collection of folk magic and folklore that is practice today. Witchcraft is exactly the same thing only based in European folklore and folk magic and old beliefs while Hoodoo is a combination of African lore and beliefs as well as the various Christian beliefs found in the new world as slaves transitioned from one life to the next.

Mostly, the goal in separating them here was to treat the "traditionalist" approach with more ceremonial aspects differently from the less traditionalist approach, which likely doesn't contain as many ceremonial aspects, but the ones it does become quite central to the practice.

I should mention that many people in Traditional witchcraft work with the old Grimoires to meet and work with spirits. Some work with satanic rituals and some work with more elaborate rituals. The use of ceremonial magic at least the ceremonial magic practice of summoning spirits is not forbidden. Traditional Witchcraft is then a more central mixture of the Old God and Goddess of the Land and working with land spirits as well as some practices of Christian Mysticism. Think of the Cunning Men and Women and how they would use prayer and work with those Gods. The Cunning men and Women are an aspect of Traditional witchcraft ties into Christianity to an extent.

[loona wynd]

The thing I don't get is why Christians practice Wicca instead of CM. You are either monotheistic or polytheistic, you can't really be both? They're probably just practicing folk magic anyhow I guess. Don't worry about getting too bogged down in definitions, looking forward to the general info you're posting. Thanks.

I think a big part of it is that many people don't know about it. I didn't learn about ceremonial magic until I had been studying Wicca for sometime. Even then I didn't quite get it. I think if more people understood it and were aware of it then they would be more open to it.

Enochian magic is also right up this alley. Jhonathan Dee and Edward Kelly were Christians when they created this form of magic. They worked together and channeled angelic energies and formed a style of magic that worked with these beings. What Christian wouldn't have issues with working with angels?

Hoodoo is another practice that Christians could be more open to as well. This one however has a lot more stigma attachted to it than other styles and traditions of magic. For this reason many people would avoid it. I feel that a lack of knowledge here and a lack of exposure to the truth about Hoodoo is one of the reasons this art is dying.

In the end while the information is out there, its a lot easier to find information on Wicca than it is Ceremonial magic.

[random417]

CM is also plagued to a lesser extent with the same problems as Hoodoo. People hear about CM, and don't think angels, they think triangles of Art and demonic evocation. However untrue, it is the common perception.

[loona wynd]

CM is also plagued to a lesser extent with the same problems as Hoodoo. People hear about CM, and don't think angels, they think triangles of Art and demonic evocation. However untrue, it is the common perception.

I thought that summoning magic with triangles of art and the demons of the Goetia are a part of some styles and traditions of Ceremonial magic? The only demonic forces I've ever seen associated with ceremonial magic are those in the Goetia. And even those demons aren't necessarily dark forces. They are just another type of spirit or in some views fallen angels (those who sided with Lucifer when he challenged the throne of heaven). That doesn't make them dark persay.

I mean Hoodoo also has the animal parts and hexing/baneful magic practices that many want to stay away from but they are still a legitimate part of Hoodoo traditions. Now most Hoodoo practitioners that work with animal parts dont sacrifice or kill the animals they would use what they can find in the woods or something. If I wanted to use snakeskin I wouldn't skin a snake. I'd use the shed skin of a snake found in the woods (well in my case I use the shedding of my own pet snakes).

So I hope that my post gave you some insight into the differences I was asking you about.

[loona wynd]

I guess the Christian Wicca thing is a result of wanting a simpler form of magick than CM. There's not really a simple option for monotheistic practitioners. I do disagree though, soft polytheism can sometimes kind of be both

Henotheism is an option. This would make the folk magic practices of various traditions that deal with spirits and Gods not of Christianity a possibility. In Henotheism you worship and believe in one deity primarily. You are open to the existence and possibility of other Gods out there but you don't worship them.

And you are right about soft polytheism really working with monotheism. You can be as a soft polytheist a polytheistic monotheist. Sound complicated? Soft polytheism is basically the belief in multiple deities but that they are all basically part of one large God and Goddess or one divine diamond. So in this case I guess a Christian could work with polytheistic practices. To them The God of Christianity would simply be the one Large God that all the other Gods make up.

[random417]

I thought that summoning magic with triangles of art and the demons of the Goetia are a part of some styles and traditions of Ceremonial magic? The only demonic forces I've ever seen associated with ceremonial magic are those in the Goetia. And even those demons aren't necessarily dark forces. They are just another type of spirit or in some views fallen angels (those who sided with Lucifer when he challenged the throne of heaven). That doesn't make them dark persay.

I mean Hoodoo also has the animal parts and hexing/baneful magic practices that many want to stay away from but they are still a legitimate part of Hoodoo traditions. Now most Hoodoo practitioners that work with animal parts dont sacrifice or kill the animals they would use what they can find in the woods or something. If I wanted to use snakeskin I wouldn't skin a snake. I'd use the shed skin of a snake found in the woods (well in my case I use the shedding of my own pet snakes).

The Goetia is one of several grimoires used in evocation work. The spirits in there are mostly neuteral, but make no mistake, there are a few darker entities in there. There's also many other books, some darker, some with angels. Dark and light is mostly a construct of our minds, but... the point I was making is that the darker operations are quite often all that's in the public image. Like the animal parts and hexing in Hoodoo, it is a part of the tradition, but from outside, it's all people hear about some times.

[loona wynd]

The Goetia is one of several grimoires used in evocation work. The spirits in there are mostly neuteral, but make no mistake, there are a few darker entities in there.

I've only glanced through and read through a few of the rituals in my copy. I mentioned the Goetia specifically because its the only one I could name and think of off the top of my head. I'm aware that most of the old Grimoires out there are full of rituals working with all sorts of entities. Not all of them pleasant.

There's also many other books, some darker, some with angels. Dark and light is mostly a construct of our minds, but... the point I was making is that the darker operations are quite often all that's in the public image. Like the animal parts and hexing in Hoodoo, it is a part of the tradition, but from outside, it's all people hear about some times.

I wont deny that. I just was clarifying that they are actually part of the tradition but not all there is to the style and practice of magic. I think that Hollywood has a part to play in this aspect of all magical traditions. I mean using those tomes and summoning a spirit the protagonists cant control gives a great scare and makes a good story. I can't deny that. I also can't deny the impact and effect it will have on the minds of the public in regards to the various practices and traditions.

Is evocation something you have done?

[random417]

I do. Mostly I do the angels on the Tree (from kabbalah), but I was given several grimoires from a friend, and have worked my way through those. I don't do evocation as practical magick though. It works fine, but it's overly complicated to me

[loona wynd]

I do. Mostly I do the angels on the Tree (from kabbalah), but I was given several grimoires from a friend, and have worked my way through those. I don't do evocation as practical magick though. It works fine, but it's overly complicated to me

I've done evocation of elemental forces in circle casting. I've also evoked a dragon spirit successfully. Its definitely something that I would like to try more. The author Konstantios supposedly gives some very simple rituals for working with some of those entities. I don't know how effective those ritual practices are though to be honest. I may give them a try. I'm interested in evocation of the arch angels.

Do you consider the calls in the LBRP to evocation?

[random417]

The LBRP is in my mind, invocation into the circle. It's funny, our modern terminology has a gap. Evocation is generally into a scrying device, or outside the circle. Invocation is used for 2 things I consider different enough to need different terms, calling a thing into yourself, or calling into your sacred space.

Konstantinos has a great book there actually, I use some if it myself. I wouldn't suggest even trying for a physical manifestation, mirror work is so much easier, and gives the same result. If you can scry, and you can call something, you can evoke into a mirror. I'd suggest replacing the Divine Names in whatever source you use with ones suited for you, of course