vervain wrote:
Next, Loona Wynd, I hope you don't mind if I have a few questions for you.
Please ask away. I will let you know I have read this response about 5 times before I have hit reply. I wanted to make sure that I not only read the reply and heard what you were saying and asking, but that I didn't respond emotionally which I could have done in the past.
vervain wrote:loona wynd wrote:My thing about Runes is that Runes are a Norse sacred mystery and most people either ignore that fact or have never heard of it before.
What makes you think that people [who know about runes] don't know that they are a Norse sacred mystery? On the contrary, most of the people I have met who knew anything about runes knew much more about where the runes come from than about each rune's purpose. If anything, I find people think they are simply letters and do not know they can be divinatory! I'd be interested to hear why you say this.
Its been personal experience is all. Most of the people I have spoken to about an interest in runes have only ever used them in a fashion of related to divination. Typically they have picked up one of the divination rune sets out there and read the book with the set. That is how I started, but once I looked for rune books I saw numerous Germanic/Norse Pagan books come in and knew that there was something more to them.
vervain wrote:
Great!
I started with them as a divination tool. I started with the Ralph Blum set. To be honest they read for me right away and made sense. Though when I used them in that fashion something seemed to be off. There was something that was off so I stopped using them and decided to not use them any more until I had read more and done a lot more research into their history and use. I'm still not there.
I tried to dabble and use them in a spell based on limited magical and spiritual research and going mostly with the divintory meanings. The spell worked but had a nasty side effect. There was employment gained but mental health suffered. Odin punishes those who act foolishly with the Runes and their powers. I experienced that punishment.
vervain wrote:loona wynd wrote:and not just another divination tool like Tarot cards.
The Tarot cards are by no means
just another divination tool. They have an incredibly rich history in gaming as well as divination, and many MANY witches today and for decades have used them in magickal practice. Their storytelling powers are so potent that they are used in certain types of therapy, and the unique and rich symbolism and artwork of each individual tarot card and deck adds an amazing amount of power and focus to spellwork.
That's not what I was saying. Tarot cards have psychology and numerological symbology in them as well as cultural symbolism in them that is very powerful. I really don't know much about tarot cards. I have never really looked at them for anything more than a divination tool though I know they are much more than that. I know they can be used in spell work and ritual work, I just have never seen them as such.
vervain wrote: I speak from personal experience as well as a decade of research. Am I picking up the sense that Tarot is somehow inferior to Runes for being only divinatory?
Actually it would be the reverse if that were true. I would actually put tarot above Runes. Tarot symbolism seems more universal than the Runic symbolism which in divination universal concepts are typically more what you look for.
vervain wrote:Even if it was simply that, that seems like a stretch to me. All systems have their differences but I don't think that alone makes one better than another. Am I reading you wrong? Please correct me if I am.
You really are and it's my fault for not really being clear in that regard. In all honesty I love how varied the systems of divination are. I've explored the Iching and had some interesting results with that system. I've explored a system called the Oceans Oracle which is complex yet simple using nature symbolism when you think about it. I as I mentioned did a brief exploration of runes as a divination tool and had effective results. I most often actually work with a deck called the Spirit of the Wheel medicine cards. This has been the oracle deck which has proved to be most insightful for me. I do posses several different Tarot decks and different Oracle decks. I love to explore divination as a way to develop psychic development and guidance.
vervain wrote:Tarot was a divinatory tool before it was a magickal one, and Runes were (probably) a magickal tool before they were divinatory; but it is important to remember that Tarot/Tarocchi/etc were first a game, and Runes were first an alphabet--a "futhark." It is easy to forget that the runes were used all throughout Norse culture as a writing system, something we think of as being very mundane, because as modern witches the mundane and the spiritual are so separated for us. It is our job to meld them back together. To the Norse, the power of writing was not mundane--it had mundane uses, but the ability to write is incredibly magickal in every sense of the word... or do we disagree here?
On that fact we agree. Writing was a sacred act. The swords that had runes on them were actually often beserkers. Berserk were sacred to odin or they were massively known to be associated with Odin. The Ring saga explains this part. Regardless the ties with the runes on the sword and the becoming of their animals (bears or wolves often) in battle the beserkers can be traced to Odin. Even the smiths of the swords and armor who crafted the swords with the runes could be connected to Odin.
vervain wrote:I also find it interesting that you seem to be looking down on the idea of divination in general (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Nope. I love divination. In all honesty while I want to develop my skill as a reader and could see myself becoming a professional psychic reader, I am a bit afraid of my psychic abilities and intuitions when it comes to readings. Every reading I have ever given families or friends, or even just basic acquaintances at a summer camp have been so spot on that it scares me to an extent.
I give my natural innate ability in part due to when I was born. My birthday is during the time of old Samhain. Samhain is known to have been basically any time between October 30th and November 7th. I was born on November 7th. This tells me that I was born at this time for a reason. This is a highly psychic time of year. It may be one of the reasons I have been so skilled with basically any form of divination right away. It still scares me to an extent, which is something I am working on.
vervain wrote:As a reader of Tarot, runes, Lenormand, various oracles, et cetera, I find it hard to understand why divination seems to be, in your worldview, a much "lesser" kind of magick. It is true that it can be an easy gateway into other magickal practices, but divination can be a very deep magick in itself, and incredibly helpful. As someone who reads regularly for others (family, friends, strangers, you name it) as well as myself, and has seen the amazing help that it (Tarot especially) can be for people as a means of guidance, reassurance, comfort, and urgent messages from the Universe, it feels to me very much like a very noble and deep magick. Tarot especially only becomes deeper and more telling the longer you study it, and I have found runes also become more magickal and personal the longer you work with them, for magick as well as for divination. I'd be interested to hear whether you've had very negative experiences with divination--I'd be happy to help if you've gotten stuck, or if you're just curious and uninformed.
Oddly enough I don't consider oracle types of divination magic necessarily. That doesn't mean I don't discount their value. My mom often has me do a reading for her a few times a year. She does this because while she is a skilled tarot reader herself, she does not trust her readings for herself and would rather some one else give additional insight. How surprised my mom remains at my readings to their accuracy and my advice with them often scares me as I said above. I feel that I do need to get over this fear of my accuracy and accept it for what it is. I also need to accept that if I am going to ever fully embrace the roles of the priesthood I am going to have to embrace and develop stronger skills with divination.
If you are wondering what types of divination I would consider more magical I would have to say Channeling is one of them. I would also say that scrying and spirit work (trance work like shaman spirit divination and the like) are more magical. I would say that tarot is magical in a way but those types are a bit more magical. The reason is that there is a trance state and a type of reality involved that is deeper and different than that with tarot readings (at least in my experience).
vervain wrote:Furthermore, while it is true that there is not sufficient evidence to definitely say that the same people who wrote with the runes and did magick with them used them for divination, there is definitely not enough evidence to say that they didn't, and the Norse certainly did cast some sort of lots for divination, runic or otherwise.
True. We know that Odin often consulted Mimir and the Fates (oracles) for advice and wisdom. We also know that he performed significant self sacrifice in order to obtain the Runes (the hanging himself on Yggdrasil sacrificing himself to himself and seeing then within mimir and taking them up). So divination was a part of their culture. Though it was feminine. Odins associations with Seidr is actually something he did get ribbed for by other Gods. Spirit knowledge of that sort was considered womens domain.
But I'm getting off track lol...So yes. We can confirm from both the Eddas and the various Sagas of the Germanic cultuers that divinations of various sorts were used. We don't know exactly what systems were used or how they were actually interperted in their times. We do know that oracles and fortune telling played a role in Germanic lore. This is key in that knowing ones Wyrd and Fate based on Oorlog allowed for some personal decision on how to go about making that happen. Fate, Wyrd, and Oorlog are intertwined with Norse and Germanic lore. Being able to tell ones Wyrd, Fate, and Orolog is infact divintory in nature. This is part of the nature of Nordic Shamanism and the sorts of Mysteries they experience and explore.
vervain wrote:.
loona wynd wrote:With the Runes I more fear them becoming marginalized as a divination tool rather than dying out. I would rather see Runes as a sacred mystery and magical practice be rare and nearly gone than see them used as divinitory tools.
It makes me sad that you would rather see the runes die out than be used in a way that is (if it is not a way the runes WERE historically used, which we can't say it wasn't) heavily based on their historical uses. The fable of the Dog in the Manger might be relevant here. I really hope I've read you wrong, and please alert me if I have--I don't mean to offend, I'm just trying to be clear on what all is being implied here.
Fable of the dog and the manger? I don't know that I am familiar with that fable, Would you be willing to share that with me here?
vervain wrote:loona wynd wrote:If I were to focus completely on Anglo -Saxon and Germanic witchcraft I would be using Galdr and Seidr as practices. For me that are Norse magical traditions and should really be studied and engaged in within that context. For me the cultural aspects are key in the meanings of the practices and spirits involved. Remove the cultural context and the practices are not the same any more.
It is true that the practices are not the same when you remove the context, but that does not mean they are not or cannot be beneficial, even drastically so.
I wasn't saying that they weren't. I was merely saying that removing the cultural context removes a significant part of the cultural and historical powers and forces behind those symbols. Its the same for basically any symbol and practice.
vervain wrote:I did eventually come to Norse lore and decide to adopt Hel and Odin as my foremost Lord and Lady, but that is a quite recent development whereas I have been studying, writing with, reading (reading writing and reading for divination), and working with the runes since even before I really found Paganism. If my personal practice of using the runes for nine years before I came to adopt certain Asatru practices/beliefs and follow Hel and Odin offends you, then I am sorry for you.
It doesn't offend me. Not at all. What you do is your own buisness. Nothing is what it was before. Every one today practices something that they make their own. They may draw from historical inspiration but it is their own views and practices based on their experiences and world views.
The fact that you were eventually led to add Hella and Odin into your practice says something. Perhaps your previous works with the runes were guiding you in that direction. I can't say for sure. I don't know. I am not you. I do think there is some significance that you eventually came to a Germanic practice after years with the Runes, even if it was not directly related, but that is me.
vervain wrote: You may yet decide that there is more to be gained by studying broadly than you now believe, but of course that is your personal journey and not mine. In any case, you are very lucky to be able to be 100% informed on all topics you incorporate into your magickal practice. Would that we were all so fortunate!,
I do extensive study before I enage in any practice. Some people have called what I do armchair Occultism, but in reality it is a mixture of practice and study. I read several different books on a topic before I engage in the practice. This way I feel I have an informed base before I explore. There is no reason today to not have read more than one source on a subject before engaging in the practice. E-books abound as do websites and forums.
I have explored a few magical techniques in practice before reading and doing more study on them and I have been burned. This is why I encourage people to do more study before engaging in practice. The exception being books that state in the beginning they are meant to be used as workbooks. In which case doing the exercises as you read and explore that book is acceptable and encouraged, though often times there is recommended reading for the lessons and exercises in those books. In which case I suggest reading those materials along side the practice and development of those workbook skills.
vervain wrote:loona wynd wrote:Ogham is a Celtic practice. I have had no interest in Celtic magical practices so I have had no interest in Ogham. However I would treat Ogham the same way I would treat the runes. They are a sacred part of a specific culture. I would have to study that culture as part of my study of Ogham.
Of course you would need to study Celtic culture to properly understand Ogham and how it works; but that doesn't mean that anyone who wants to adopt the use of Ogham in their practice needs to follow Celtic deities or adopt all or even other parts of Celtic belief systems. If there was never any cultural exchange, the world would be several millennia behind where it is now. We improve ourselves by exposing ourselves to a broad range of material and processing it critically and creatively.
No where in my post did I ever say that some one had to accept or recreate Germanic practices in order to work with the Runes. I suggested that there be significant study of the home culture involved though which includes atleast having if not in worship practice a passing familiarity with the various deities and spirits mentioned in the lore and associated with the Runes, the history of that culture, and a look at the source texts in order to gain a greater understanding of the roles of the Runes and of their significance. Once some one has a basic concept of those background ideas they can work with the mysteries and forces and develop a practice and understanding that is their own and is appropriate to modern life.
To be honest most people who have adopted a recon style philosophy to their study and practice admit that there is no way that they can completely recreate the practices and religion of the ancient Norse and Germanic tribes. Many of those practices would be unacceptable today. This applies to basically any recon practice. They can however work within the confines of modern society to create something in the spirit of the ancient religions. Which is what any one who practices Runic magic does.
Your example with Ogham was perfect. You actually got where I was going with the whole Runes as a Norse mystery and being sacred to the Norse practices. To understand Ogham you would have to study the culture which includes the deities, the lore, and the ways Ogham would have been used as we know. That doesn't mean modern users are limited to those practices, but it does form their base for contact and development.
For me the Runes are no different. They are used today in ways that are not like they were used historically. That doesn't mean the study of their roles in the past, the historic culture, and the lore is not important to working with them. I actually think it means we need to study that more in order to gain better insight to how they may be used today. The past presents keys to the use today.
The mysteries and forces behind the runic symbols are as real and as powerful today as they were back in the ancient times. The forces and the meanings behind them have not changed, How we experience and how we can relate to them has changed. So ho we use them is possibly changing as well, but that still doesn't mean historical traditions and uses of the runes and their powers should be forgotten or ignored. If some one can engrave runes into their stove for prosperity and health as was a tradition in the past I say it should continue as a respected practice and maybe even revered for being as close to the origin as possible.
I am not a recon. Though I do often empl0y their thought modes of practice and philosophies when working with a new magical system. For me Runes in magic and spirituality would be approached Recon style at first simply to gain as much knowledge as I could before putting it into practice and gaining experience (wisdom).
vervain wrote:I'd love to know if I've wrongly interpreted anything you said here, and I'm sorry if in my response to my misinterpretation of your post I have offended you. I'm just really kind of lost and want to clarify what's being said, as I feel that much of what I'm reading doesn't quite click.
I'm glad you asked me questions. Its actually nice to finally find a place where I am asked questions and I feel I can respond and not have been attacked or on the defensive. I can honestly see where you came from in your posts and where you would get the ideas that you have put forward. I hope that I made some things a bit more clear for you. If you have further questions please ask me and I will do my best to answer.