How can someone be a Christian Witch?

[Imperious]

I've read every post (it took a while!) and, sadly, I've not read anything that contradicts my stance on the subject:

There's no such thing as a Christian witch.

Christianity, as a religious construct, is completely incompatible with [W]itchcraft. The two are mutually exclusive for several cultural, historical, logical and magical reasons. Anyone arguing otherwise is simply misunderstanding the basic tenets that underpin one of, or both of, these religions.

If anyone feels they have anything to add that's not already been said in this thread, I'm happy to discuss it; I'm not a dismissive person.I would, however, politely ask that no erstwhile argument is rehashed or repackaged for presentation.

[mrsdavid1975]

I've read every post (it took a while!) and, sadly, I've not read anything that contradicts my stance on the subject:

There's no such thing as a Christian witch.

Christianity, as a religious construct, is completely incompatible with [W]itchcraft. The two are mutually exclusive for several cultural, historical, logical and magical reasons. Anyone arguing otherwise is simply misunderstanding the basic tenets that underpin one of, or both of, these religions.

If anyone feels they have anything to add that's not already been said in this thread, I'm happy to discuss it; I'm not a dismissive person.I would, however, politely ask that no erstwhile argument is rehashed or repackaged for presentation.

The first thing would be to define " Christianity". Just as everyone who does witchcraft isn't Wiccan. .. Not every person who believes in One God is Christian. .. I believe in God. But the corruption of the bible has led to my taking my own path. I have my own God. .. I also believe in deities .. I don't worship them but I feel they are all part of what makes life. They are similar to father son Holy Spirit type thing. .. There are higher spirits and low ones.. There are helpers and seductors. .. There are those who help us when we need to feel love or control and those who help us when we need to stop someone from harming us and our families.

Most " Christians" I know aren't even spiritual. They dress up, go to church and then judge people all the other six days of the week. There is no spirit in their religion. I know many witches who are the same. " I hate Christians" and they dress up in pentagrams , blurt out " blessed be" and put on a show like its a suit or watch that makes them look important. There are weekend warrior witches who only come out at Halloween. ... And christians who only come out at Christmas and Easter. .. Religion is politic of spirituality. ... There are Christians who don't follow along in the politics of it all. And there are witches who think all the fluff is kind of silly.


I believe there are Christian witches. People shouldn't box others in so much. MOST of us are here because we break ALL those molds and stereotypes. .. And we are seeking a place of home. Not everyone loves a mansion. Some of us like bungalows. .. I don't live in a Victorian house with a black cat and wear a witch hat all day.

[Imperious]

I have my own God. .. I also believe in deities .. I don't worship them but I feel they are all part of what makes life. They are similar to father son Holy Spirit type thing. .. There are higher spirits and low ones.. There are helpers and seductors. .. There are those who help us when we need to feel love or control and those who help us when we need to stop someone from harming us and our families.

I'm sorry, but all of this is completely at odds with Christianity as a religion.

Anyone who believes in what you describe, is not a Christian. There's no room for fudging this, I'm afraid, because the bible makes it abundantly clear in the book of John, chapter 14, verse 6:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, and there's absolutely no way of getting around that fact. Witchcraft, and the religions that it is involved in, are not. If there's any doubt, here's Isaiah chapter 44, verse 6:

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"..

It couldn't be clearer.

Now, I understand that a great many people try and argue that they believe in "a" god (as opposed to "the" god), and that they reject parts of the bible that they find disagreeable. That's fine, and perfectly reasonable, but those people have subsequently renounced their Christian religion; logically, there's now nothing separating them from a Muslim or Jew who decides that they want to reject the Quran or Torah.

The belief that there's one god, and that Jesus Christ is the only way to him, is an absolutely fundamental belief of Christianity. The moment you reject that idea, nay the second that you do, you are no longer a Christian. If you wish to be a witch or warlock, you have to reject it.

So, to slightly rephrase my first post:

There's no such thing as a Christian witch, because it's logically impossible.

Put bluntly, you can only be one or the other. You can never be both.

Honestly, I think it's time the magical community stops peddling this bizarre assertion. It achieves little other than the contempt of people who will simply conclude that witches and warlocks are so determined to be accepted, that they're willing to commit to bouts of intellectual laziness.

In short, it does our movement no good.

[YanaKhan]

Imperious,
We all appreciate your opinion. Still, please remember, this is an open discussion and people may disagree with you.
Christianity has many "sects" (for a lack of a better word) and there is difference from Bible to Bible. In some, there may not be statements like the ones you cited or they may be different. I'm no specialist, but for example in the Orthodox version of the Bible, there is no such thing as "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".
Witchcraft can also be monotheistic, polytheistic or non-theistic. There are many Gods and Goddesses and some people consider themselves Christian witches. I believe we should all respect others' beliefs.

[Vesca]

I want to remind everyone in this thread of Rule 2 in the forum rules:

2. Please be respectful of others' beliefs and opinions at all times or your account will be closed.

While I am open to the idea of discussions, countering opinions, quoting and properly citing your reasonings and sources, spirituality is a very personal thing and as such it is crucial that we understand that when it comes to a non-tangible and non-scientifically backed theological discussion, it is opinions, personal perceptions and interpretations, and the perceptions and personal interpretations of others that we are discussing.

Keep it respectful, and we will have no problems. Continue down this path of righteous elitism, and I will step in and you can kiss this thread goodbye.

[Xiao Rong]

Dear Imperious,

I recognize that many people have very strong feelings on the matter. As much as I love a good theology debate, though, let's keep in mind that there are many people on this forum who do identify as a Christian witch, and for a variety of different reasons (some of which are deeply personal and may have little to do with theology). I respect that you feel strongly the two are not compatible, although clearly others feel differently. As this discussion moves forward, I would prefer that we stay respectful of others' spiritual identities and avoid telling others what their religious paths are.

Thanks,
Xiao Rong
Site Admin

[Imperious]

Did it really need two moderators and an administrator to have a go at me for trying to present an argument that's logically consistent, historically sound and philosophically appropriate?

You're demanding I respect the opinions of others, but implying that mine are to be kept to myself.

That said, this is your house; I will respect the rules as a humble guest.

I won't post in this thread again.

[YanaKhan]

Did it really need two moderators and an administrator to have a go at me for trying to present an argument that's logically consistent, historically sound and philosophically appropriate?

According to whom? Certainly not the Christian witches.

You're demanding I respect the opinions of others, but implying that mine are to be kept to myself.

No, not really. We only ask you to refrain from statements like "There is no such thing" in a bold and/or underlined shrift like no one could have a different opinion on the subject and you are the only one who is right and none can view things differently..

That said, this is your house; I will respect the rules as a humble guest.

Well, we do have rules. It does not mean you can't have your opinion. Just please remember others may feel as strongly as you do and are inclined to have their opinions too.

I won't post in this thread again.

This is totally up to you.

[Imperious]

Deleted. I've PM'd you instead, YanaKhan, in order to avoid derailing this thread.

[Xiao Rong]

Well, I was reluctant to speak too much on this as I am not myself a Christian witch. But I don't find that Christianity and witchcraft are even all that mutually incompatible. You could maybe make the case for Christianity and polytheism, Christianity and duotheism, Christianity and animism, etc., although what Mrs. David wrote above actually doesn't sound too different from Catholocism. You argue that Christianity is centered around the belief in Jesus Christ. I don't see how the practice of witchcraft is incompatible, though, when historically many people who identified as Christian have engaged in folk magic practices of some sort or another, whether that is the use of herbs, love spells, etc. (anthropologically, many religious practices are not dissimilar from magic.) So I don't really see how your argument stands that Christianity, the belief in Jesus, is fundamentally incompatible with the practice of witchcraft (which is itself quite nebulously defined).

===================================

The reason why I asked for some respect for people who do identify as Christian witches is because I know it's a deeply personal process that is, indeed, full of contradictions theologically. But one's reasons for being a Christian witch may not be based purely on theology either. If you come from a Christian background but are interested in exploring witchcraft, you may not be ready to give up the entire Christian culture you came from, and you may continue to retain a connection to God or Jesus, and so you may call yourself a Christian witch. I'm sure that most people who identify as such are well aware of the inherent contradictions (have you read any of the previous posts in this thread??), and it's their prerogative to figure that out.

So you don't see how Christianity and witchcraft can mingle in your own practice? Fine. But I don't see why it bothers you so much that other people identify themselves as such, and why you have a personal mission to tell other people that they're not allowed to call themselves what they want to call themselves. Other people can walk their own paths, and they can even make mistakes. I certainly don't agree with a lot of other Pagans. But if you would like to be a part of this community, to some extent you do need to be prepared to accept that other people will have different opinions no matter how much you argue with them, and "that's that".

Worse, you're also now telling me not to post with my typical accentuation and style. I'm new here, but I read the rules and nowhere does is stipulate that I must converse in a certain way.

Debate and discussion are all well and good. Even forceful and pretentious are fine. But it is, in fact, a non-negotiable rule here that you need to be respectful in discussion. At minimum, you can't insult others who disagree with you as "intellectually lazy", irrational, etc. If your typical accentuation and style involves insults and anything less than that is censuring your speech, then you are welcome to find any of a number of other outlets online to write in whatever style you please.

[SnowCat]

Imperious, I'm a bit late to the party as it were, but which version of the Bible are you quoting from. Many different versions exist, and unless one is an expert in ancient languages, and has access to original manuscripts, it can be argued that the verses quoted may not be as originally written, and that the intent may be in question.

Respectfully,

Grumpy SnowCat

[Seraphin]

Due to Christianity medieval-thinking and conservative stance, I understand that many folks have this notion that studying or practicing witchcraft would be in conflict with Christian teachings. I would still however like to point it out that people could still freely believe in Jesus and in the Bible and at the same time practice magick just like some Kabbalists and Voodoos are doing. Yes I also don't believe that religions most especially Christianity and particularly Catholicism can be reformed, as their Scripture and their doctrines are based on a claimed information from a perfect All-powerful Deity, written down by people, long time ago. Reforming such a book, means to denounce the messiahs and the prophets of that religion and doubt or deny the so called "sacred" messages within. What can be reformed though, are the people who are still accepting their label as Jews, Christians or whatever.

I also understand that practicing magick will never work within Judeo-Christian faith since it is a monotheistic tradition but if you consider your personal faith in Jesus and in the Bible to be a living tradition, a spiritual path, not an archaic, then you could do and believe in anything you want to do and believe even though the book and clergies said "no you cant!"

In order to be a living tradition, your spiritual path should be updated as your knowledge and experience grew. You could tap the inner teachings of Judeo-Christian faiths as well as the apparently disparate system of magick. This is basically because; your path is not a religion in itself but a way of understanding the matrix of life and communing with the Highest Ideal.

The Ten Commandments for instance can be demonstrated in two ways. Judeo Christian faith only considers its exoteric (outer) meaning while Bible-believing mystics give much emphasis to its esoteric (inner) meaning. Like for example, the commandment, "thou shalt have no other gods before me" to the mystics esoterically means, that putting lesser gods such as money, fame, sex and power before the Deities means that grace cannot be received. This doesn't mean that there are no other Gods. The commandment, "thou shalt not make any graven image" esoterically means that we may make images or paintings that represent the Divine but that they should not be set in stone as the only correct image of the Divine.

The esoteric interpretations and explanations of the Bible's passages will even sound for some people to be ridiculous as to discourage the weak-hearted Christians from further explorations. But upon more serious contemplation and reflection, they will be found to contain a more coherent and ultimately more convincing view of the nature of things than can be found in orthodox Judeo-Christian systems of thought. The largely esoteric and hidden biblical explanations are not meant to be dogmatic pronouncements but merely alternative ways of viewing of the Divine, the man and the nature. If studied with an open mind, they will help anyone to understand better and apply their magickal learning to their biblical studies.

The thing about Judeo-Christian why it is very contradictory is that this particular faith has its own "doctrines" about "most" things regarding the Divine and the world in general. As, I said, it is more conservative which makes most of its followers more arrogant and close-minded. Now, I would like to emphasize the word "most" in my first sentence of this paragraph. Yep, Judeo-Christian did have a particular or separate approach to life in "most" areas, but not in all area. The Judeo-Christians, though claimed to be living in distinct lives apart from the pagan still very much part of the pagan world. As such, Christians shared many of the beliefs, cultural practices, and practical everyday pattern of life and wisdom that were common to other pagan people.

Several brief examples are useful to note: The Canaanites offered animal sacrifices in the Canaan even before YHWH instituted the priestly ritual under Moses. The literary structure of the Mosaic Law Code particularly the book of Deuteronomy, reflects direct influence of the suzerain treaty formulas of the Hittites. The story of virgin birth and resurrection of a Deific savior also has an Egyptian, Roman and Hindu versions. Apostolic teachings borrowed its essential beliefs from Platonism and Hellenistic philosophy. The communion or the breaking of bread is taken from Dionysian Mysteries. The Christian holidays such as the Easter, All Souls Day and Christmas bear the distinct mark of Ancient pagan festivals. These examples are representative in showing that cross-cultural influence or borrowing was taking place on a number of different levels among several people of ancient world. Judeo-Christians too are part of the environment of cultural-sharing. This another good reason why I believe one could still practice witchcraft and still be Bible-believing person.

But in this matter of borrowing, the Judeo-Christians do differ from pagans in one area: their God is a jealous Deity; a self-centered, authoritative, and ironically, anti-pagan Deity. For this God, the dependence upon or the borrowing from other cultures didn't necessarily mean agreement. Apparently, the way I see it, this God thinks that the borrowing, wasn't a kind of acculturation or syncretism which derived from cross-fertilization of ideas but rather characteristically casting the borrowed ideas in a different mold. This mold however resulted in the disregarding and maligning of the pagan beliefs and practices such as magick and witchcraft. Since Judeo-Christians placed all thought and every aspect of their lives, wherever derived, in and under the full theistic context of Yahwistic faith.

So we see that even though Judeo-Christian faith did embrace a variety of pagan cultures, it still wants, mainly because of their God's order, to shatter paganism and attribute all works and mysteries to their God and God alone. Forces and powers independent from their God such as the energies and forces utilized by the witches are falsely been identified Satanic and demonic. They are said to be powers that pollute minds, diverting them from redemption, holding them hostage to Satan. Now this is the reason why I believe you cant be a witch and a Christian at the same time. You are either a Christian or a witch. You cannot be both.

Nevertheless, I must still return to what I emphasize at the beginning of this post. I believe you could still practice witchcraft and at the same time believe in the Bible -– but if and only if you're doing it outside the Judeo-Christian faith. For with all these laws and prohibitions against magickal studies affecting the inner desire of your heart, you should never forget that you also have your own peculiar manner of thinking. Not just because you believe in Jesus, and the saints and all the prophets, you must reflected primarily and fundamentally, a Christian way of looking at things. Though, the Bible in which you based your faith is Judeo-Christian book, you may stand in distinct contrast to other Christians. Your beliefs and lifestyle could be different from the monotheistic conservative faith. In nature of your God, in manner of worship, in ethical values and in practice, you could have unique and separate ways outside the boundaries of Christianity just like the Gnostics.

Now that being said, I dislike the authority and discrimination that many Christians show towards other pagan faiths and eastern traditions, but I equally dislike the authority and discrimination that many pagans show towards other paths. Isn't it a little hypocritical to rain that exact same authority and discrimination down on them? Imposing one's belief to others as I witness here comes abrupt, violent or by force, and if not, then basically from one doctrine to another.

I see that you Imperious is very concerned about the inappropriateness and unfitness of merging Christianity and witchcraft and I can see it why (I'm a polytheist and even though I don't worship the Judeo-Christian God, I still respect His commandments when He said, "There shall not be found amongst you ... a sorcerer, soothsayer or engager of witchcraft ... or one who calls up the dead. For it is an abomination before God, and it is on account of these abominations that God is giving you their land.") BUT if you'd notice here in this Forum, each story of coming into "paganism" involves a tale of self-discovery. The path to paganism is a long, gradual road filled with learning and growing acceptance for each principles and beliefs wherever they came from. I believe most of the people who identify themselves as Christian witches are in the bridge between the Church and a Coven. They're crossing over. Give them time to realize this on their own selves and do not try to shove all your beliefs on their throats. It may be a lifetime of being in the Christian-witchcraft bridge but who gives a flying crap as long as they're actively looking for answers, which is definitely the way to live as humans, being that we're created as thinking beings and not merely sheep that follow blindly to what other says.

Let these people who identify themselves Christian witch choose to live: as a follower of Christ who practice magick. Damn all what the Judeo-Christian dogmas claim! 'Coz someday we gotta find another way and just live by what we say. And sometimes, we all need cooperation rather than competition and argument. The more we leave religious doctrines in our mind the more we became human.

[mrsdavid1975]

The bible was hijacked for the sake of politic. .. I never stated my " religion" as I have none specifically . I believe in God. .. As I stated. .. And I believe in many other entities.


Now. After stating that fact , I would like to say also just because a person believes a certain way, doesn't make them less intelligent than you are. I hate when people judge others. Especially when they have NO CLUE who or what a person is.

If a person feels they are so intelligent that everyone else is wrong and they are right , it shows a LACK of intelligence to me. Those who feel they have the least to learn have the MOST to learn.

[mrsdavid1975]

Oh. And not everyone is on a path to " discovering that what YOU believe is the right way. ... If that were the case , we would have no use for free thought or will.

[Vesca]

Due to Christianity medieval-thinking and conservative stance, I understand that many folks have this notion that studying or practicing witchcraft would be in conflict with Christian teachings....

And I thought I was prone to writing novels.. Kudos to you Seraphin!