Question about the Dieties

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Elven555
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Question about the Dieties

Post by Elven555 »

I'm reading this book about Wicca & Witchcraft.
I've read about the foundings and history and now I'm reading about the different Dieties and what they specialise in.
It says in the book, that in wicca, they worship 1 diety and they're usually drawn to that diety.

I guess I don't really understand the concept of the Diety. It's my understanding that the God & Goddess are a part of everything around us and the Dieties are a manmade creation of certain aspects of the God & Goddess to help us relate better to them... is this correct, or am I completely ignorant? :oops:

If I'm right, then I don't understand the importance of worshiping 1 diety...?
Earth my body, water my blood,
Air my breath and fire my spirit
LaFiamma
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Re: Question about the Dieties

Post by LaFiamma »

Elven wrote:I'm reading this book about Wicca & Witchcraft.
I've read about the foundings and history and now I'm reading about the different Dieties and what they specialise in.
It says in the book, that in wicca, they worship 1 diety and they're usually drawn to that diety.

I guess I don't really understand the concept of the Diety. It's my understanding that the God & Goddess are a part of everything around us and the Dieties are a manmade creation of certain aspects of the God & Goddess to help us relate better to them... is this correct, or am I completely ignorant? :oops:

If I'm right, then I don't understand the importance of worshiping 1 diety...?
I don't know what book your reading or what the context is...but here's the deal on deity vs. god/goddess:

"Deity" is a gender-neutral term that can be used synonymously with "god" or "goddess"...that is to say, gods and goddesses are deities.

Wicca is the worship of one god and one goddess. Traditional Wicca is a hard polytheistic religion- that is, believing that all gods and goddesses are separate, individual entities with their own history, stories, agenda, existence, but it focuses on two specific deities whose names are oathbound, frequently referring to them as "The God" and "The Goddess" in public.

What many people call "neo-Wicca", the Wicca that you read about in the commonly-published books is not the same thing. One very common, though not universal, belief is that this form of Wicca is the worship of The God and The Goddess where all gods are aspects of the one god, and all goddesses are aspects of the one goddess (this is called monism). Some go so far as to say that The God and The Goddess are two halves of one whole, though some believe that The God and The Goddess are two distinct entities (duotheism)

Either way, the mythology of the Wiccan wheel of the year does hinge on the worship of the god and the goddess and their roles in the cycle of death, life and birth in nature.

hope that helps to clear things up.
Elven555
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Post by Elven555 »

Ahhh, thanks, yeah that makes sense now!
Earth my body, water my blood,
Air my breath and fire my spirit
LaFiamma
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Post by LaFiamma »

Elven wrote:Ahhh, thanks, yeah that makes sense now!
no problem...happy to be of help
amunptah777

Re: Question about the Dieties

Post by amunptah777 »

Elven wrote:I'm reading this book about Wicca & Witchcraft.
I've read about the foundings and history and now I'm reading about the different Dieties and what they specialise in.
It says in the book, that in wicca, they worship 1 diety and they're usually drawn to that diety.

I guess I don't really understand the concept of the Diety. It's my understanding that the God & Goddess are a part of everything around us and the Dieties are a manmade creation of certain aspects of the God & Goddess to help us relate better to them... is this correct, or am I completely ignorant? :oops:

If I'm right, then I don't understand the importance of worshiping 1 diety...?
Elven,

Without being too offensive to others, I gotta this, pantheism is incredibly important to a pagan world view.

If you're confused about the polymonotheist situation, I can't stress enough the importance of using Hinduism as a model.

They've had the polytheist thing down for about a gazillion years and there is plenty written on the topic.

Try sacred-texts.com...:)

Thet
LaFiamma
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Re: Question about the Dieties

Post by LaFiamma »

amunptah777 wrote: Elven,

Without being too offensive to others, I gotta this, pantheism is incredibly important to a pagan world view.
Thet
Could you explain what you mean by the statement " pantheism is incredibly important to a pagan world view."?

It is entirely possible to be pagan and not pantheistic- many of us are not. So while pantheism may be important to *many* pagan worldviews, it is NOT important to "pagan" worldviews as a whole.

You may not intend to be offensive, but to say that any given thing is important to the entirety of paganism is offensive.
Eretik
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Post by Eretik »

I think 'Neo -Wicca' is surely a misnomer, considering Initiatory Wicca is approximately all of sixty years old itself.Eclectic Wicca is a less confusing term and is in common use.Why complicate things further.It's like saying neo-neo-paganism or postmodern neo - paganism.It confuses me. Semantics aside: here is some more information , to expand on the terms Fiamma used above.

Monism, pantheism, and panentheism
Following a long and still current tradition H.P. Owen (1971: 65) claimed that

"Pantheists are ‘monists’...they believe that there is only one Being, and that all other forms of reality are either modes (or appearances) of it or identical with it."
Although, like Spinoza, some pantheists may also be monists, and monism may even be essential to some versions of pantheism (like Spinoza's), not all pantheists are monists. Some are polytheists and some are pluralists; they believe, that there are many things and kinds of things and many different kinds of value. (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). Not all Monists are Pantheists. Exclusive Monists believe that the universe, the God of the Pantheist, simply does not exist. In addition, monists can be Deists, Pandeists, Theists or Panentheists; believing in a monotheistic God that is omnipotent and all-pervading, and both transcendent and immanent. There are monist polytheists and panentheists in Hinduism (particularly in Advaita and Vishistadvaita respectively), Judaism (especially in Kabbalah), in Christianity (especially among Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans) and in Islam (among the Sufis, especially the Bektashi).
excerpt from Wikipedia : Monism

I think this illustrates Amunptah's reference to Hinduism. This is complex and I think it's easier to look at the dictionary definitions, at least for now.

http://www.etymonline.com/

monad
"unity, arithmetical unit," 1615, from L. monas (gen. monadis), from Gk. monas "unit," from monos "alone" (see mono-). In Leibnitz's philosophy, "an ultimate unit of being" (1748).

monism
"the philosophical doctrine that there is only one principle," 1862, from Mod.L. monismus, from Gk. monos "alone." First used in Ger. by Ger. philosopher Baron Christian von Wolff (1679-1754

monotheism
1660, from Gk. mono-, comb. form of monos "single, alone" + theos "a god" (see Thea).

--------------

dual
1607, from L. dualis, from duo "two." Dualism is first recorded 1794, from Fr. dualisme, in philosophical and theological senses. Duality is attested from c.1400

Dualism
Dualism is the view that two fundamental concepts exist, such as good and evil, light and dark, or male and female. Often, they oppose each other. The word's origin is the Latin dualis, meaning "two" (as an adjective). [from wikipedia]


Ditheism/Bitheism
See also: Dualistic cosmology
In theology, 'dualism' may also refer to 'bitheism', 'duotheism' or 'ditheism'. Although ditheism/bitheism imply moral dualism, they are not equivalent: ditheism/bitheism implies (at least) two gods, while moral dualism does not imply any -theism (theos = god) whatsoever.

Both 'bitheism' and 'ditheism' imply a belief in two equally powerful gods with complementary properties. However, while bitheism implies harmony, ditheism implies rivality and opposition, such as between Good and Evil. For example, a ditheistic system would be one in which one god is creative, the other is destructive (cf. theodicy). In a bitheistic system, one god could be male and the other female (cf. duotheism). However, bitheistic and ditheistic principles are not always so easily contrastable, for instance in a system where one god is the representative of summer and drought and the other of winter and rain/fertility. (cf. the mythology of Persephone)

The 'di-'/'bi-' ('two') prefix in 'ditheism' and 'bitheism' does not imply that such a religious system cannot also be monist. Zurvanism (Zurvanite Zoroastrianism), Manichaeism and Mandaeanism, all three of which are representative of dualistic philosophies, are also monist religions since each has a supreme and transcendental First Principle from which the two equal-but-opposite entities then emanate. This is also true for the lesser-known Christian gnostic religions, such as Bogomils, Catharism, etc. These may then be contrasted with Marcionism, which held that the Old and New Testaments were the work of two opposing gods with neither having a superior instance (both were First Principles, but of different religions). More complex forms of monist dualism also exist, for instance in Hermeticism, where Nous "thought" - that is described to have created man - brings forth both good and evil, depending on whether it receives input from God or from the demons.


In Eastern mysticism

The Taijitu symbolizes the duality in nature and all things in the Taoist religion.Alternatively, dualism can mean the tendency of humans to perceive and understand the world as being divided into two overarching categories. In this sense, it is dualistic when one perceives a tree as a thing separate from everything surrounding it, or when one perceives a "self" that is distinct from the rest of the world. In mystic traditions such as Zen, a key to enlightenment is "transcending" this sort of dualistic thinking, without merely substituting dualism with monism or pluralism.

The opposition and combination of the universe's two basic principles of Yin and Yang is a large part of Taoist religion. Some of the common associations with Yang and Yin, respectively, are: male and female, light and dark, active and passive, motion and stillness. Although, these interpretations are just the common concepts which are some aspects derived from the greater concepts of Yin and Yang. The Tai-Chi in actuality has very little to do with Western dualism, instead it represents the Eastern dualism philosophy of balance, where two opposites co-exist in harmony and are able to transmute into each other.

The complementary aspects of masculinity and femininity are revered by certain Neo-pagan religions.[edit]

Polytheism
Etymology
English polytheism is attested from the 17th century, loaned from French polythéisme (since 1580). In post-classical Latin, the term is polytheismus. The word is attested later than atheism but earlier than theism.

It ultimately derives from the Greek adjective πολυθεός (from πολύς "many" and θεός "god"), in the meaning "of or belonging to many gods" found in Aeschylus (Suppliant Women 424), in the meaning "believing in many gods" in Procopius (Historia Arcana 11).


Gods and divinity
deity, god (male deity), and goddess[female deity]
The deities of polytheistic religions are agents in mythology, where they are portrayed as complex personages of greater or lesser status, with individual skills, needs, desires and histories. These gods are often seen as similar to humans (anthropomorphic) in their personality traits, but with additional individual powers, abilities, knowledge or perceptions.

Polytheism cannot be cleanly separated from the animist beliefs prevalent in most ethnic religions. The gods of polytheism are in many cases the highest order of a continuum of supernatural beings or spirits, which may include ancestors), demons, wights and others. In some cases these spirits are divided into celestial or chthonic classes, and belief in the existence of all these beings does not imply that all are worshipped.


Further information: Theology, Pantheon (gods), Euhemerism, Interpretatio graeca, Demigod, and Apotheosis
Polytheists believe that gods are distinct and separate beings. They may believe in a unifying principle such as the "One" of the Platonists. The Greek gods provide an example. The ancient Greeks believed that their gods were independent deities who weren't aspects of a great deity and did stand on their own.

"Soft polytheists" regard their multiplicity of gods as being manifestations of either common entities, or representing different aspects or facets of a single personal god, the latter also sometimes known as "inclusive monotheists", as are many modern neopagan groups. Soft polytheism means that the person practicing a polytheistic religion believes that their gods are aspects of another god or goddess. In the case of the Ancient Egyptians this comes in the form of triads or triple gods or goddesses. They believed that certain gods were aspects of a greater god. Amon was an aspect of Ra and was usually known as Amon-Ra. The triple gods Ptah-Sokar-Osiris to give an example shows that even though their gods may have distinct personalities and traits, they are considered to be aspects of an another deity.Pantheism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pantheism
Pantheism is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence, and the Universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is represented in the theological principle of an abstract 'god' rather than a personal, creative deity or deities of any kind. This is the key feature which distinguishes them from panentheists and pandeists. As such, although many religions may claim to hold pantheistic elements, they are more commonly panentheistic or pandeistic in nature.
History
The term "pantheist"—from which the word "pantheism" is derived—was purportedly first used by Irish writer John Toland in his 1705 work, Socinianism Truly Stated, by a pantheist. However, the concept has been discussed as far back as the time of the philosophers of Ancient Greece, by Thales, Parmenides and Heraclitus. The Jewish backgrounds for pantheism may reach as far back as the Torah itself in its account of creation in Genesis and its earlier prophetic material in which clearly "acts of nature" [such as floods, storms, volcanoes, etc.] are all identified as "God's hand" through personification idioms, thus explaining the open references to the concept in both New Testament and Kabbalistic literature.

In 1785 a major controversy began between Friedrich Jacobi and Moses Mendelssohn, which eventually involved many important people of the time. Jacobi claimed that Lessing's pantheism was materialistic in that it thought of all Nature and God as one extended substance. For Jacobi, this was the result of the Enlightenment's devotion to reason and it would lead to atheism. Mendelssohn disagreed by asserting that pantheism was the same as theism.

Varieties of pantheism

Classical pantheism, which is expressed in the immanent God of Kabalistic Judaism, Advaita Vedanta Sanatana Dharma, and Monism, generally viewing God in either a personal or cosmic manner.

Biblical pantheism, which is expressed in the writings of the Bible with the understanding of personification linguistics as a cultural communication idiom in Hebrew language. [Isa 55:12] [Acts 17:28]

Naturalistic pantheism, based on the relatively recent views of Baruch Spinoza (who may have been influenced by Biblical pantheism) and John Toland (who coined the term "pantheism"), as well as contemporary influences.
The vast majority of persons who can be identified as "pantheistic" are of the classical variety (such as Hindus, Sufis, Unitarians, Etc.), while most persons who self-identify as "pantheist" alone (rather than as members of another religion) are of the naturalistic variety. The division between the three strains of pantheism are not entirely clear in all situations, and remains a source of some controversy in pantheist circles. Classical pantheists generally accept the religious doctrine that there is a spiritual basis to all reality, while naturalistic pantheists generally do not and thus see the world in somewhat more naturalistic terms. Confusion between the concepts of pantheism and atheism may be an ancient problem in linguistics. Rome referred to early Christians as Atheists, and the explanations of this semantic phenomenon vary, one of which references the confusion between these two concepts.
----------------------------------

Agnosticism · Atheism · Deism
Henotheism · Ignosticism · Misotheism
Monism · Monotheism · Nontheism
Pandeism · Panentheism · Pantheism
Polytheism · Theism · Autotheism

all terms to look up , I haven't the time to do more now.This is like advanced theology isn't it, I hope most of this makes sense,it's like wading through mud for me.lol.
amunptah777

:)

Post by amunptah777 »

Thanks to Eretik for the advanced theology lesson. ;)

Lafiamma,

What I'm saying, in essence, is that while modernity has created an
environment which is conducive to being "pagan and non polytheist", that
the roots of paganism are essentially structured around the worship of a variety of deities/entities etc..., regardless of
nomenclature or statuary. Ancient pagans in all parts of the world can
be classified polytheist, and therefore, yes, it is incredibly important
as a cornerstone of our respective practices; as in, if you don't know where you've been, you don't know where you're going.

Thet
jcrowfoot
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Post by jcrowfoot »

Um, I think what LaFiamma was saying is that trying to group all the calidescope of religions into one big label is oversimplifying.

One of the most frustrating things about reading pagan theology is how people tend to mush all pagan traditions into one big soup and assume that all pagans worshiped the same way, when it was different all over by tribe let alone by area.
amunptah777

.

Post by amunptah777 »

JC,

Yah, I get that. I'm simply saying that there is not a single ancient culture that I've found that could not be considered pan or polytheist.

Which is why the study of the Hindu form is important and is essential to the comprehension of the issue, as it is the largest/oldest still practiced form of this type of theism.
Elven555
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Post by Elven555 »

Wow. I think I'll have to read this when my brain is functioning better.
Thanks Eretik!
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Air my breath and fire my spirit
LaFiamma
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Re: .

Post by LaFiamma »

amunptah777 wrote:JC,

Yah, I get that. I'm simply saying that there is not a single ancient culture that I've found that could not be considered pan or polytheist.

Which is why the study of the Hindu form is important and is essential to the comprehension of the issue, as it is the largest/oldest still practiced form of this type of theism.

What exactly do you mean when you say "pantheism"? The definition has changed over time, and I don't know of any ancient cultures that could be defined as pantheistic by the most common modern use.

And there are many takes on Hinduism, some straight polytheist, but more are monist (Vedism on the other hand, is straight polytheistic) many very henotheist, even some monotheist....So I wouldn't necessarily say that study of Hinduism- in any form- is important, unless one wants it to be. I know that I don't need to understand Hinduism in order to understand Hellenic polytheism, or any of the other European cultural religions.
LaFiamma
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Post by LaFiamma »

Eretik wrote:I think 'Neo -Wicca' is surely a misnomer, considering Initiatory Wicca is approximately all of sixty years old itself.Eclectic Wicca is a less confusing term and is in common use.Why complicate things further.It's like saying neo-neo-paganism or postmodern neo - paganism.It confuses me.
Initiatory Wicca and the Wicca which is written by Scott Cunningham et al are different enough that they're really not the same religion. "Neo-wicca" is pretty commonly used, I didn't invent the word.
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