Philosophical Questions About Deity, God, and Wicca

[SilverAntlers]

I've taken one giant philosophical question from Christianity with me, in fact, it's part of the reason I left. The majority of Wiccan philosophy and theology are subjects that I agree with. But I have never seen this particular question answered. It was famously posed by Epicurius and goes like this: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Of course this question is based on the concept of the Christian God, but it can just as easily be applied to the Wiccan Deity.

The best explanation I've come up with is that Deity is neither good or evil, or that he/she/it is both. Equal parts good, equal parts evil. This means Deity is very much like humans. Humans created good and evil, and even morality itself when we started to think about our own thoughts and actions. Deity is everywhere, it just depends on whether you let in the good or the evil. If you don't like the way the world is, then you should do something about it.

However, I still have more questions. Where did the Wiccan Rede come from? Does this mean that humans just invented it? Or did Deity give it to us at our creation as a sort of instinct? This still doesn't make sense to me, because if Deity is neither good nor evil, than he/she/it could not create a command that commands us to act good. Is Deity even omnipotent at all?

And why would we want to worship and seek a relationship with a being that could care less about us? Just some honest questions I have that I hope some of you guys can answer. I know many of you are more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. Like I said in my member introduction, I'm a hopeful skeptic. I want this all to be true, but the rational side of my brain keeps nagging at me.

[Siona]

Not a Wiccan myself, but in my view, no Deity isn't all-knowing, or all-powerful. That's not my definition of deity. It also doesn't mean that Deity isn't really-knowing, or really-powerful. But I do think "evil" also has various sources. We're creatures of free will, we do a lot of evil to each other. If a deity stopped this, we would no longer really have free will, would we? I think some evils are just nature's way... death, disease, natural disasters, as humans we're not really always happy about such things, but are they really evil? Perhaps these things play their roles in our universe and in our lives. It's hard to say. I don't think Deity wants us to suffer, really, but sometimes such things are part of living a physical life.

As for the Wiccan Rede, yeah, just written by humans. Rede just means advice, so it's not really supposed to be some sort of divine law or anything. It's just the basic ideas of Wicca in a poem form.

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

I'm confused, do you think Wicca only has one deity?

[corvidus]

Have you ever considered 'Deity' as not an intelligent, powerful and present individual, but as an intelligent, powerful and present substance?

Anthropomorphism is a common way of expressing certain ideas, but all that has to do with false ego-definitions (sometimes our minds just make things up because we cant think of better alternatives).

The best way to approach theology is rationally, but many definitions need to be rewritten to align with the Natural world

[SilverAntlers]

I'm confused, do you think Wicca only has one deity?

What I meant was, (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) that Wiccans believe in one Divine, intelligent force that has two polarities: one male and one female; the God and the Goddess. The God and Goddess have many interpretations: Thor, Poseidon, Athena, Isis, etc. But they are all still part of one entity (or force, or being). Since Epicurus's question is based around the concept of a monotheistic god, the Wiccan Deity is susceptible to it.

As for what Siona said, free will is a big factor in all of this. Do Wiccans believe that everyone has a predetermined destiny? Because if we do, how can we have free will? Christians like to say that everything is part of "God's plan". God has planned the universe's life in a way that good will eventually triumph over evil. Of course, that would just make us a puppets, dancing as part of God's big plan. Definitely not free will.

Does Deity actively love us? Even if it would damage our "free will" if he/she/it/they intervened or it was for the "greater good", how could Deity stand to watch and do nothing as we suffer and die every day? Just my thoughts. What are yours?

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

I'm confused, do you think Wicca only has one deity?

What I meant was, (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) that Wiccans believe in one Divine, intelligent force that has two polarities: one male and one female; the God and the Goddess. The God and Goddess have many interpretations: Thor, Poseidon, Athena, Isis, etc. But they are all still part of one entity (or force, or being). Since Epicurus's question is based around the concept of a monotheistic god, the Wiccan Deity is susceptible to it.

As for what Siona said, free will is a big factor in all of this. Do Wiccans believe that everyone has a predetermined destiny? Because if we do, how can we have free will? Christians like to say that everything is part of "God's plan". God has planned the universe's life in a way that good will eventually triumph over evil. Of course, that would just make us a puppets, dancing as part of God's big plan. Definitely not free will.

Does Deity actively love us? Even if it would damage our "free will" if he/she/it/they intervened or it was for the "greater good", how could Deity stand to watch and do nothing as we suffer and die every day? Just my thoughts. What are yours?

Wicca is orthopraxic, based in right practice not right belief. The prime mover or drygten is not a god per se. It may be the force behind everything, but I wouldn't call it caring or a god. It is probably not concerned with the mundane. This belief is called monism and sometimes goes hand and hand with pantheism, and I am a monist. However, the drygten as the underlining reality is more of something similar to brahman in Hinduism or primordial chaos in Greek myth. By far, not a god and not their opposites either. But the origin of everything.

Of course you will get Wiccans have different beliefs in gods. Some of us being polytheistic, atheistic, monotheistic etc. So you will get different answers and interpretations.

I am not sure if I completely believe free will is an illusion or not, this goes more towards philosophy of determinism vs combatiablism, and not the notion of pre-destination. Although some of that has to exist if we think of time in a more scientific manner.

Well, the prime mover is neutral and created good, evil, and in between. I wouldn't say it actively loves us but I also think it created some sources for our suffering. Eliminating all suffering or saying it is always bad is silly. The prime mover's concern is not for the greater good nor the greater evil. It just is.

Technically, the prime mover would be infalliable, omnipresent and potent etc. But gods are definitely not these things. They are flawed beings like us.

[SilverAntlers]

What you spoke of near the end of your post Lady_Lilith is something I've always wondered. Maybe it's just the mindset I was raised in Christianity with that's still affecting the way I perceive Deity. But why would you want to worship or connect with a being that doesn't care about you?
Are the Gods and Goddesses we choose from different pantheons supposed to fill this gap?

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

What you spoke of near the end of your post Lady_Lilith is something I've always wondered. Maybe it's just the mindset I was raised in Christianity with that's still affecting the way I perceive Deity. But why would you want to worship or connect with a being that doesn't care about you?
Are the Gods and Goddesses we choose from different pantheons supposed to fill this gap?

I do not worship the gods that do not care about me and the prime mover is not worshiped, not even in Wicca. It is merely honored. I dunno anyone who worships the prime mover. Most of what is done to it in ritual is symbolic. It is not even used in magick.

The gods are the ones created to interact with humanity. Not the prime mover. I mean technically the PM is everything but it is not typically personal.

Here is an explanation from an intiate.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtmiJSP9HG4

[SilverAntlers]

The gods are the ones created to interact with humanity. Not the prime mover.[/quote]
Thanks so much Lady_Lilith! This has cleared dthings up for me a lot. Especially the video, it was very informative.
Just so that I have everything straight: the prime mover, The Deity, The One, The Dryghten, etc. created the universe and everything in it, including good and evil, but it itself is morally neutral. The gods, however, are the spiritual beings that Wiccans worship and interact with. They are inherently good, but because they don't "really" exist (I choose to take part of the approach of pagan atheists, this isn't something anyone has to believe) they can't stop our human suffering on earth if they tried. They are meant to serve as spiritual guides on our journeys. Now that's an idea I can get behind.
Even if this isn't what you believe, thanks for helping me make it make sense to myself. If you any of you still want to add something to the discussion, feel free to too.

[SilverAntlers]

I've come back to this discussion because I was thinking about my last reply. I know that Wicca is a very unstructured religion where believers are free to believe what they want. So this question is directed to people who literally believe in the God and Goddess as real beings. How do the God and Goddess of this specific belief answer Epicurius's question? Why do they not stop human suffering? Why do you worship them if they don't? Wouldn't that make them, at least in some aspect, evil? I want to know more about the duality of good and evil in the God and Goddess. But remember that this question just applies to the belief in a literal God and Goddess.

[Katrinkah]

I've come back to this discussion because I was thinking about my last reply. I know that Wicca is a very unstructured religion where believers are free to believe what they want. So this question is directed to people who literally believe in the God and Goddess as real beings. How do the God and Goddess of this specific belief answer Epicurius's question? Why do they not stop human suffering? Why do you worship them if they don't? Wouldn't that make them, at least in some aspect, evil? I want to know more about the duality of good and evil in the God and Goddess. But remember that this question just applies to the belief in a literal God and Goddess.

I don't have this specific belief but I did read in Buckland's book that the God and Goddess aren't 100% good. It said that, that was a Christian creation. It said that since they had a 100% purely good God that they also had to have the Devil to be 100% evil as the counterpart.

Although I don't have this specific belief I will speculate. We as humans grow through challenges. If we didn't have "evil" to overcome in the world then there would be no growth. Also, we have free will. So we can be aided and guided but ultimately we have the choice to do as we please.

[Appius Grey]

SilverAntlers, you have presented some great questions!

How do the God and Goddess of this specific belief answer Epicurius's question?

What makes Epicurus the authority?

Why do they not stop human suffering?

Why do They not stop human happiness?

Why do you worship them if they don't?

I wouldn't worship Them if they were in the business of forbidding happiness.

Wouldn't that make them, at least in some aspect, evil?

if you are not doing anything to stop ISIL, Boko Haram, and the like, then aren't you in some aspect, evil?

I want to know more about the duality of good and evil in the God and Goddess.

How can They, especially the Goddess, have a duality of good and evil when Her only law is love?

Looking forward to your reply!

[SilverAntlers]

To respond to what Katrinkah said first, that the God and Goddess allow evil to be in this world so that it can challenge us and give us a way to grow: how can a 3 year old child benefit from the challenge of cancer if he dies from it? How can a murder victim benefit from the presence of evil in this world if they did as a direct result of it? This is basically the same view that Christianity teaches. Humans created sin (evil), and that's why it's here. God can't interfere with it, because it's part of his "plan" and it would mess up our free will.
Appius Grey: You said that the reason you worship the God and the Goddess is because while they don't stop evil, they don't prevent happiness. But doesn't evil take away the happiness we could have if it was gone? A dictator in a third-world country could murder 5 citizens everyday for the heck of it, but technically he isn't preventing the happiness of his citizens. They can still feel happiness. But they don't, because they live in a world controlled by the dictator. Evil prevents happiness. Therefore, allowing evil to persist would technically be preventing happiness.
And even though I personally don't try to stop ISIS or Boko Haram because I can't, I'm not the God or Goddess either. I, by myself, don't have that ability. But if the God and Goddess are omnipotent, than they have the ability to stop evil, yet still don't. Do they even have the ability to stop evil?

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

Because the gods have limits, do not "rule" over everybody, and of they stopped all suffering in the world the world would be unbalanced. Lastly, this is my personal beliefs, but I also believe the gods have opposites that oppose them and try to ensure human suffering.

Valiente mentions that the Wiccan rede is not about pacifism and the pacifist stance does more harm than good. I would think this is also true if we just do away with all suffering.

Evil prevents happiness? How can one be happy without anything bad or no harm? How can one measure happiness if there is no unhappiness to measure it against?

Life is suffering for everyone. Animals suffer, plants suffer, and people suffer. Its a fact of life just like how animals prey upon each other. Even plants feel pain. Suffering is a part of natural life. I don't think the gods can get rid of the laws of nature. Buddhism is right about that one.

[SilverAntlers]

Because the gods have limits, do not "rule" over everybody, and of they stopped all suffering in the world the world would be unbalanced. Lastly, this is my personal beliefs, but I also believe the gods have opposites that oppose them and try to ensure human suffering.

Valiente mentions that the Wiccan rede is not about pacifism and the pacifist stance does more harm than good. I would think this is also true if we just do away with all suffering.

Evil prevents happiness? How can one be happy without anything bad or no harm? How can one measure happiness if there is no unhappiness to measure it against?

Life is suffering for everyone. Animals suffer, plants suffer, and people suffer. Its a fact of life just like how animals prey upon each other. Even plants feel pain. Suffering is a part of natural life. I don't think the gods can get rid of the laws of nature. Buddhism is right about that one.

And this is part of the reason I find Wicca so interesting. In all three of the big monotheistic religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, God is completely omnipotent. But the God and Goddess in Wicca don't seem to be. I'd like to know more about that.
You also said that in your personal beliefs there are opposites of the God and Goddess that try to ensure suffering. How do you believe they came about? I'm really interested to know because none of the Wiccans I've ever spoken to have this belief.
Your point on happiness is very good. I still can't quite wrap my head around a God and Goddess that aren't omnipotent. Just a left over from Christianity I suppose. What I still want to know is what the God and Goddess really are. I know that some people literally believe in their existence, and others metaphorically believe in them. What do Wiccans who follow the first path believe about them?