Shamanic Wicca

[loona wynd]

@ loona As a CM practitioner myself, I'd consider your definition to be pretty accurate, with the exception of one thing... kabbalah is very much a Ceremonial practice, and pathworkings and astral travel to the sepheroth is a almost essential part of that. Mind you, not every ceremonialist works kabbalah, and not every (magickal) kabbalist does the astral travel stuff, but imho, everyone that does kabbalah seriously should.

I did mention I'm not as familiar with Ceremonial magic as I am other forms of magic. I am aware that the Kabblah/Quabblah is a large part of Ceremonial magic or rather some forms of ceremonial magic.I just didn't know enough about it to really explain or expand on it as part of my definition/explanation of ceremonial magic. That's why I said "as I understand them". I know I have a lot to learn in that regards. I did figure that I had at least a basic concept of the differences.

I think you should start a thread on the Kabblah/Quabblah. There is a lot that it covers and its really beyond the scope of this thread. Needless to say I think that it would be an interesting topic here.

I've always understood it to be one of the tree of lifes or a map of the universe and multi-verse both for the body and for spiritual travel and work. How those play together I have never really been able to follow. If I manage to return to my training in the Temple tradition I will learn about it and how its been worked into witchcraft. The 4th degree of the Temple tradition is based on the Quabblah. So I have a ways to go before I learn that lol

I would say that ceremonial magick is inherently monotheistic, but I would say that the core beliefs are closer to Jewish beliefs than Christian. (There are exceptions to this, the Rosicrucians for example).

I would say that Thelema is also an exception to this. I don't think Thelema works within that mindset and philosophical world view. At least not as I have interpreted the book of the Law and other Thelemic writings. The Golden Dawn though is very much a Christian Organization.

I never argued that Ceremonial magic was monothesitic. I've always experienced it within the concepts of a Christian mindset and frame of reference. This is why I approcah the concepts of ceremonial magic with that view. In many places its easier to consider ceremonial magic Christian Mysticim and the Quabblah as Jewish Mysticism as there are people who believe the two practices should be studied seperatly due to different cultures.

I think for those who engage with the Quabblah it might be better to think of it in terms of Abrahamic mysticism. That covers the elements from Christianity and the elements from Jewish Mysticism. I dont know much if anything about Islam or any of the mystical practices that may be related there. I'm sure they have some sort of mysticism.

So I sort of saw them as related fields yet separate. Does that make sense? I can see how they may be worked together but I also see how they are seperate systems.

I would argue that underneath the veneer however, the beliefs attempt to transcend Abrahamic faiths... in the kabbalah for example, "God the Father" corresponds to Chessed, only about half way up the Tree of Life. Honestly, personally, that's below where the Wiccan concepts of God and Goddess lie on the Tree.

Can you expand on this a bit?

I am also an animist, of a sort. Hermetic philosophy teaches "all is mind" and it's the "mind" that forms the spirit. A little different in detail, but when explaining to people, animism comes into play enough.

I love the quote from The Kyballion "The All is Mind, The Universe is Mental". I've gotten some good questions about that quote. I believe that this mind and this all is what makes up the force of magic. This is the ability to create and work. This is also why spells and rituals can be performed entirely in the mind and still be effective. I'm actually going to work on a book about how the Kyballion's philosophy applies practically to magical and spiritual work. I just need to develop the exercises (as in do the work I'm going to put as exercises in the text) before I do so,

[loona wynd]

The circle casting itself is a variation on the LBRP which is a ritual of ceremonial magic.

LOL! Kind of. Not to ramble, but the LBRP contains in it the equivalent to a chakra cleansing, a banishment (somewhere between smudging and a house exorcism), a circle casting, and an invocation of the Highest.

Ok. I should clarify. The reference I am making is to the calling of the elemental guardians into the circle. The directions they are called in and the basic visualizations associated with them. In the LBRP there are 4 of the arch angels called into the circle for the 4 elements. In Wicca styled circle casting you have in some traditions the guardians of the directional winds called in and in others the actual elemental of the element. So if you look at that part of the LBRP and look at a typical circle casting you can see the parallels.

I didn't mean that they were exactly the same rite. The LBRP is much more than just the circle casting. There is a lot of work and parts of it before the circle is cast. This is the chakra cleansing and banishing aspects you just mentioned.

Mind you, specific rituals for those within my own tradition even, do work better, but comparing the LBRP to a circle casting... if that's all you want to use it for, that's all you'll get, but it's so much more.

I know its much more. I also know that if you look at the elements in the circle evocations of the elements and that aspect of circle casting and the angelic quarter calls in the LBRP you can see how they are related. I also know that the LBRP is part of a few much larger and more indepth rituals. I'm not familiar with those. I should say rather while I have the text and instructions on how to perform those rituals I have not done the hexagram ritual.

I personally find the LBRP much more powerful for cleansing a space than a circle casting.

[random417]

I'll start us a kabbalah thread, so we don't derail this topic any more than I already did, but while here...

I'm just now getting into traveling in the spirit vision as it were. I use an immersion technique that involves visualization of basically an astral temple. What I'm having trouble with is leaving the astral temple, which is kind of half mental and half astral, and moving to my path or sphere, which would be fully astral so to speak. Thoughts?

[loona wynd]

I'm just now getting into traveling in the spirit vision as it were. I use an immersion technique that involves visualization of basically an astral temple. What I'm having trouble with is leaving the astral temple, which is kind of half mental and half astral, and moving to my path or sphere, which would be fully astral so to speak. Thoughts?

In my personal temple I have my space where I perform astral rituals. Down the hall from there is a series of doors. Each door goes to a different realm or world in the spirit worlds. I have a rather complex multi-verse. So my idea would be to see an actual door way to the realm or place you want to visit. Knock on the door and watch it open. As it opens you will be traveling into that world. From there its up to you and the realm.

[random417]

Ah, see. I was attempting to use 1 door out of my temple for all the different spheres... whoops

[loona wynd]

Ah, see. I was attempting to use 1 door out of my temple for all the different spheres... whoops

I tried using one door. It just kept bringing me basically to the space I had made. I was able to stay in my temple but I couldn't leave it to go else where. So I started to see different doors and walk ways for different realms and it worked. For my work with Dragons I see a giant door with Dragons carved in it. The fire realm is just a door or fire paintings and shapes. The water door is actually ice. So the doors to the realms are in my mind connected to what is there. Its this mechanism that allows distinct differences.

[random417]

I tried using one door. It just kept bringing me basically to the space I had made. I was able to stay in my temple but I couldn't leave it to go else where.

exactly the problem I was having, except when I tried to leave by my doorway, I kept getting "shocked" back to awareness if my body, instead of going back to the temple. No offense ment, but that sounds like that old school comedy routine, where you leave by a door in one end of the room, and run in again by the other side

[loona wynd]

I tried using one door. It just kept bringing me basically to the space I had made. I was able to stay in my temple but I couldn't leave it to go else where.

exactly the problem I was having, except when I tried to leave by my doorway, I kept getting "shocked" back to awareness if my body, instead of going back to the temple. No offense ment, but that sounds like that old school comedy routine, where you leave by a door in one end of the room, and run in again by the other side

It was sort of like it was saying your almost there. You just have a little more to do. Lately I have been having difficulty in meditative work. I'm trying to get back to my basics.

[loona wynd]

I would say that definition actually closer defines magick than shamanism, because in our usage, shamanism is speaking to a specific ritual style.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Now, this is off the cuff, and not particualarly thought out, but...

I would argue that all ritual induces an altered state of conciousness, because the contact with whatever gods, spirits, godforms, angels what have you occurs within this altered state.

I would agree. I have experienced a few different altered states based on different situations. The bare basic one for ritual work I call ritual conciousness. There are other states beyond that.

Ritual style determines what methods one uses to induce said altered states. The way I see it, there are 4:

I was taught that there are multiple styles and methods of inducing trance all used historically by various magical practitioners in different cultures. I was taught though that there as basically two ways but different methods within these ways. You have the inhibitory methods (those that calm you down and take you within) and the exhibitaory methods (those which excite you and bring you with out to go into trance).

1. Meditation - purely meditation or mental exercises can be very powerful in invoking altered states, and most of us include meditational practices within our magickal work, even if we leave meditation outside of the circle.

This is an example of an inhibitaory method. This method calms the mind and body to search the spirit and go to their worlds. Hypnois is another example of an inhibitory method that can be combined with meditation successfully (self hypnosis).

2. Religion - The truly ecstatic religious experience transforms your normal consciousness. We all seek this, I think, but it's something that comes and goes as much as the Divine (however you view it) wishes as when you want it. That's not to say you can't seek contact on your own, but the experiences that create shifts in consciousness aren't entirely under our control.

I think this also depends on the type of rituals. There are some very ecstatic Christian Churches. I've been to a Pentecostal Church that was like that and I know you've all seen the type of worship in churches in the media at some time. I've also been a church that while there was no ecstasy there was still a powerful sense of the God being present (Catholic and Lutheran Churches are big on this for me).

3. Ritual - Repetition of sacred words or phrases, the actions of a ritual, these things create an altered state all on their own. This is the secret to Ceremonial or High Magick, and what the ceremonialist uses most often. The LBRP induces an altered state all on it's own, because I do it every day, as part of my practice. The ritual elements shift your conciousness because it's used to shifting with those things.

The rituals of my religious witchcraft are at times exhibitory (involving dance and theatrics) and other inhibitory (some ritual are performed entirely mentally and this is all going within). Religion and religious rituals covers several different types of methods but they all have an altered state to experience the Gods or God in a single style of religion.

I do know the power of repeated ritual. There was a time when I used a circle casting of sorts everyday before every meditation or any practice. This gave me a sense of strength and it set up an altered state of mind before actually doing the work. Ritual actions then gave a deeper sense or state of mind.

4. Shamanism - While the name of this style may change if I expand this to a full paper (I write for my Order quite a bit), most of what the uninitiated would view as shamanism would still fall here. Drumming and chanting, dance, song, and yes, the use of drugs all would fall under here.

Pain, isolation, fasting, sensory deprivation, entheogens (substances), restriction/bondage these are all different techniques found in different shamanic cultures across the world. Each of these are different tools to reach a trance state.

I have engaged in Pain, Isolation, Restriction, Drumming, and Entheogens as Shamanic trance work. Pain is exhibitory. Isoltaion is actually a mix as your body and senses are physically excited and tuned to the max yet you go within. Restriction is again a combination of the two. Drumming for me is exhibitory even if I am going "within" or into the underworld as my soul is excited and leaves due to higher vibrations.

Entheogens are either exhibitory or inhibitory depending on the substance. This is something to take very seriously and work very carefully. Some substances used traditionally can be lethal if used improperly. This is why it is important to really study the plant and substances being used by the traditions and practices and never use them without proper supervision/guidance by an experienced elder.

Now, most magickal ritual includes more than one of these styles, but there does have to be room for them within the ritual itself. IF we take Wicca to mean that which was passed down by Gardner, I don't think he left enough room within the ritual itself for most of the shamanism things.

I would agree with that. Cunningham's style leave a little more room but is still rather structured when you look at it. This is often where I think the Wicca flavored Hedge Witchcraft comes from honestly. Other styles of hedge witchcraft that are religiously based come from different cultural context based on the Gods involved.

Anything looser than the horribly structured Gardnerian setting however, could and likely would contain elements of the shamanic style.

I don't think it's horribly structured. I actually find the rituals very poetic. I love the invocations. I also have personally felt the power of using the salt and water consecration as outlined in those rites. There is beauty and power in those rites. I just can't say I have experienced the real power of the rites as I am not initiated. However by visualizing the rituals and reading the words aloud I did feel a sense of power.

Sorry this is long, I debated for a long time about posting this, not wanting to offend anybody with the views on Gardner and Liber AL, but what the heck, the intention is to spark thought, not anger.

I need to look at the information about the Gardner and Liber AL again and we can discuss that in another thread. I will only point out that there is evidence as always both for the existence of Old Dorothy and the New Forest Coven and against it. I believe Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the moon covers both sides of this story but I need to actually read it to see where it goes.