Magick & Physics...

[Ron James]

Do you believe that magick is a strictly natural force that can only operate within the laws of physics?

Or, do you believe magick has a divine, or "supernatural" element to it that can operate outside of the laws of physics?


This isn't something I'm seriously looking into. I'm just curious and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the bounds of magick.

[Shub Niggurath]

Do you believe that magick is a strictly natural force that can only operate within the laws of physics?

Or, do you believe magick has a divine, or "supernatural" element to it that can operate outside of the laws of physics?

I believe that we don't know enough about physics to answer this question properly.
But if you're interested in opinions I'd say that if we make magic happen then it's not "against the rules" of the Universe and thus it must be operating within the laws of physics (it would probably require a whole new and transformed theory with new laws - quantum physics is a good step forward in that direction). To me it doesn't mean that it's not divine or supernatural, to me it proves that we're all spiritual beings and the Universe itself is just an infinitely huge mass of magic. We're all divine, magic is everywhere - in the air you breathe, in the fact that we're alive and self-conscious. It's all supernatural!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU&feature=share

[random417]

It's funny, I'm kind of going to sidestep your question, in order to answer it...

Quantum mechanics establishes that no event, however unlikely, is completely impossible. Some things are so improbable as to be functionally impossible, but nothing you can think of has a flat 0 percent chance of happening. I believe that magick addresses the chance of an event happening directly, adjusting the probability of the event without worrying about how it will occur. The stronger your spell, the more it swings probability in your favor.

Anything then, is possible with magick, and can be made more likely with magick, but sometimes, the starting probability is so low, that you'll never get that percentage up enough to see a result. Doesn't mean that your magick didn't work, just that your adjusted probabilities took effect, then the dice were rolled so to speak, and you still came up on the short end. Make sense?

[Aesennyll-IF]

Things like the Priestess calling up the energy of spirit with her hands aloft and the biggest shooting star, so long and so bright seems to penetrate the open space between her arms, the sight is spectacular in it's glowing green zeal, the Priestess gasps at the beauty in time for all within the circle to turn and see it fade into the East. This was last full moon.
Some one is listening, that's for sure

[Ron James]

I believe that we don't know enough about physics to answer this question properly.

Good point.

All very good answers. Thanks guys.

[SnowCat]

I think that magick operates outside the currently accepted laws of physics. But the Earth used to be flat, the sun revolved around the Earth, and separate but equal was fine and dandy. And women couldn't possibly work and raise a family. The weird old days.

Snow

[Seraphin]

Before I attempt to answer this, consider an analogy: Let's say you were a green elongated grass inside a morning mist. The mist condenses onto your stalk as droplets of water.

What would you know of that mist? You can't see it, hear it, smell it nor taste it. You only recognize the wetness of the droplets when it reaches your stalk. As it touches you. But a mist is not defined as "the wetness of droplets of water". A mist is a mist. Perhaps, before it touches you, the mist was once dry.

Our perception and even our understanding about magick is limited in a similar fashion. Although, unlike the stalk of grass, we are capable of seeing beyond normal, beyond natural.

This is why I believe that Science needs Divine force and the Divine force needs Science to explain what magick really is. Science discusses the energetic layer of magick, the one that we can perceived -- the droplets of water that reach our perception. The Divine force tackle the inner layer -- the mist that's out there, and further still. Since the droplets came from the mist, of course they can best be grasped by one who knows the mist as well. And, on the other hand, "understanding the droplets" (the perceivable outcome of magick) is a vital part of "understanding the mist" (the process behind the curtains).

[Shub Niggurath]

I think we're closer to the answers than you think we are.
Many scientists - especially physicists and astrophysicists are usually not as far away spiritually as they are demonstratively from people like us. I know what it's like to be forced to hide your own beliefs and opinions as a scientist - people expect you to be what common folk consider to be a sceptic and what is actually a forced ignorant/atheist point of view. That's why most of the scientists prefer to hide what they know or what they suspect to be "scientifically interesting" just in case - they need a job too, right?
Anyway, just to mention some basics that are easy to look up:
1. There's this famous "Double-slit experiment" which basically proves that an observer can influence the outcome of the experiment. Of course, in the experiment those were only particles that were used to prove that point but that arises a question - how much more can the observer change? Those who practice magick know it for centuries
2. Psychology is still a fresh scientific discipline but there are already streams of theories trying to merge spirituality and psychology into one. The most interesting views, imo, has Stanislav Grof and Ken Wilber.

[Seraphin]

many scientists - especially physicists and astrophysicists are usually not as far away spiritually as they are demonstratively from people like us. I know what it's like to be forced to hide your own beliefs and opinions as a scientist - people expect you to be what common folk consider to be a sceptic and what is actually a forced ignorant/atheist point of view. That's why most of the scientists prefer to hide what they know or what they suspect to be "scientifically interesting" just in case - they need a job too, right?

Actually, I find a lot of physicists now sounding more like spiritual mystics than die-hard scientists.

Niels Bohr, once declared: "Everything we call real is made up of things that cannot be regarded as real."

But yes, I've also seen some scientists who chose to hide their discoveries -- especially the mystical aspects of their discoveries -- because I believe that some are afraid to admit that classical and mainstream science is still inadequate in explaining the behavior of the tiniest particles of matter and the subtle energies and vibrations around us.

The hesitancy of scientists to accept some of the mystical or esoteric stuffs is the fear that to believe in them would be to shake and destroy the very foundations of science, because such don't correspond and agree to the current accepted laws and principles of science. Therefore, the field of science is still used to looking at the world simply and accustomed to believing that something is there, or it's not there.

[Shub Niggurath]

Well yeah, you hit the jackpot Seraphin! But there's hope! I just recently heard that astrophysicists are concerned about the current scientific model of the universe because it no longer serves new discoveries, which means that we're a step closer to sheding the old view and accepting the new. I'm very excited about that because many scientists were working their asses off to find proves that the old model is outdated (we're still using Isaac Newton's model from XVIII century!). It will probably take at least a few more years to change things but we're on the right track
And when that happens I already have a few ideas on psychological researches that can be done.

[Seraphin]

Yeah! I also believe there's a HOPE! I firmly believe that all of this an integral part of the ongoing creative process. I have always intuitively known that this another way of explaining seemingly "paranormal" or "supernatural" things that I, you and many other people in this Forum and all over the world have done or experienced will soon to be accepted by majority.

Indeed, all our scientific and spiritual progress can be traced along the precedent the first men or civilization who ever they were, set their foot in the world of sharpening definition. Each time we fine-tune the tools of science to describe the "reality" in more precise, measured, rational and linear terms, we find ourselves leaping ahead in our control over our environment.

As we reduce all phenomena to their most fundamental elements, we uncover the deep truth about unexplained things such as Magick. As we reduce Laws of Physics and Divine Force to a common language, we discover the paths by which we can integrate them to form a single whole, with all of us moved along into a single consciousness perhaps reminiscent of the consciousness of the Deities who I believe do understand all of this.