A strange thing I came across.

[JuniperBerry]

Traditional Karma states that when a life ends, it goes into the nothingness. There is no awareness, no consciousness, no individuality. As time progresses, there will become a sense of something, which will evolve into a sense of the outside, which will further form into a sense of 'I'. Once 'I' is established, the being will investigate what 'I' had meant and be hit with the full force of the life...and recognize it as it's own truth. It's a painful and traumatic process. Once 'I' has been establsihed and absorbed the self will seek 'I' out again and be reborn according to the deeds it identifies as 'I'.


Or something...point being, deity isn''t really involved.

[presentcharisma]

I think it can be confusing if we try to associate our mental identifications/ hangups with words. For instance when someone says "God" I used to think of an old man with a beard in the clouds casting judgement and intimidation on people. So when people would say the word "God" i would clam up and block it away because i rejected the idea of a man in the clouds ruling with fear. But if I were to read spiritual writings and replace the word 'God" with life force energy... it all becomes something I can relate to and something i personally feel good about.Now I say that i do believe in god, but its an energy not "some guy". Remember shakespere , what's in a name, what is a rose by any other word, its still a rose. You must experience honey to know what honey is, honey is not the word, you can not know honey until you taste it and touch it.

So lets take away the words and associations like 3 fold, karma, etc and see what it feels like.
Then, as Greek said, you can find what it means to you.


How it feels to me may not be what it feels like to you. So there is no right or wrong in anything. As shakespere said "there is nothing either good or bad, it is thinking which makes it so" (and trust me, I am not a big shakespere fan or anything, it just happened to work out that way lol)

To me.. I believe in karma, 3 fold, etc but my meaning is not exaclty the same as the next person.

I believe in the energy aspect of it all... if I put out energy that "Feels good" then my life will feel abundant. If I put out negative energy.. it will fester and come into my life in many other negative forms. Ever notice those who have "bad things happen to them" tend to be bad energy magnets? And then walking through life with a "resistance" to everything. People with abundance and light tend to have luck etc. They look forward to the day.
I feel like It is my job to control the energy i put out. Obviously an instance of defending yourself from an attack is neutral. But going out to get revenge is negative.

[A new found power]

I would like to start by saying The book I was studying was NOT written by Gardner! It was actually just a genuine rookie book I picked up at my local library, written by two people called Denise Zimmerman and Katherine A. Gleason. I did find out upon later inspection that it IS very heavily wicca based. (Which is misleading... at the title claims "wicca AND witchcraft" when it's primarily just wicca.) Unfortunatly. So I suppose it's very possible they believe / inserted that part and I just didn't identfy it as Gardner anyway. But that's not really relevant to this topic.

What shadowx said at the bottom of this thread did make sense though. I made this thread out of confusion. This was because it seems that "karma" is very very selective in whom it decides to kick in the backside. If you do bad, then bad comes. If you do good, good comes. If you do something bad, but within conditions that make it necessary and/or good, then bad things happen? That can't be right. I agree with shadow on this

[presentcharisma]

I would like to start by saying The book I was studying was NOT written by Gardner! It was actually just a genuine rookie book I picked up at my local library, written by two people called Denise Zimmerman and Katherine A. Gleason. I did find out upon later inspection that it IS very heavily wicca based. (Which is misleading... at the title claims "wicca AND witchcraft" when it's primarily just wicca.) Unfortunatly. So I suppose it's very possible they believe / inserted that part and I just didn't identfy it as Gardner anyway. But that's not really relevant to this topic.

What shadowx said at the bottom of this thread did make sense though. I made this thread out of confusion. This was because it seems that "karma" is very very selective in whom it decides to kick in the backside. If you do bad, then bad comes. If you do good, good comes. If you do something bad, but within conditions that make it necessary and/or good, then bad things happen? That can't be right. I agree with shadow on this

so regardless of the opinion of karma, what is your personal conclusion to the situation of punching those who "deserve it?" I feel that we all have individual truths and we tend to know what is right for us. So your answer would be the "right one" for your life.

[Asch]

Are you familiar with the concept of moral relativism?

[presentcharisma]

"Are you familiar with the concept of moral relativism?"

are you asking me?

if so, being reminded of it doesn't answer my question to newfound. And just to be clear, my question to newfound was more of a "in conclusion what did you find for yourself" not a snarky one. I get the feeling my post is being interpreted as cocky due to the questions... its not. I don't claim to know everything. My questions are just that, questions.

[Asch]

yeah sorry that was vaguely worded, I was addressing you presentcharisma. I ask because moral relativism can be a dangerous philosophy and a lot of new age thinking veers suspiciously close to it at times. Just curious

[A new found power]

so regardless of the opinion of karma, what is your personal conclusion to the situation of punching those who "deserve it?" I feel that we all have individual truths and we tend to know what is right for us. So your answer would be the "right one" for your life.

I see. Then from this I've definatly learnt two things.

1. Don't take any book as literal truth, after all I seemed to have forgot it's merely another perspective or opinion on a topic.

2. If someone caused a danger to many people, or just to me or a member of my family, I would stop them if I could. If that mean't punching them in the face... Then That's what I'd do.

However... to clarify before I conclude fully... I feel the need to explain my example.

By "those who deserve it" What I truly meant was almost those who need it. As in, those who would cause any and all harm for no reason, and could only stop via violence.

[presentcharisma]

yeah sorry that was vaguely worded, I was addressing you presentcharisma. I ask because moral relativism can be a dangerous philosophy and a lot of new age thinking veers suspiciously close to it at times. Just curious

"being reminded of it doesn't answer my question to newfound. And just to be clear, my question to newfound was more of a "in conclusion what did you find for yourself" not a snarky one. ."

Christians thought native american sprituality was dangerous and witchcraft was evil. I have not heard of the "official definition" of moral relativism, however I am familiar with the generality of the concept.
Perhaps we should open up a new thread discussing the dangers of it. I don't adopt the belief that there is only 1 way to be right and everyone else is wrong. so if that is moral relativism then I guess it is. I don't like to attach words to beliefs because I feel we get positive and negative identifications with words, and then it causes people to block it off and reject it without looking at it for what it is.
For isntance.. I can say do you want to try this honey. and you might have heard from soneone that honey was poison. So you could say "no get that s**t away from me". But if you never saw it, and you saw that i wasn't dying from it, you might be more open to trying it not knowing that it was the honey your friend warned you about.
Make sense?

[presentcharisma]

"I see. Then from this I've definatly learnt two things.

1. Don't take any book as literal truth, after all I seemed to have forgot it's merely another perspective or opinion on a topic.

2. If someone caused a danger to many people, or just to me or a member of my family, I would stop them if I could. If that mean't punching them in the face... Then That's what I'd do.

However... to clarify before I conclude fully... I feel the need to explain my example.

By "those who deserve it" What I truly meant was almost those who need it. As in, those who would cause any and all harm for no reason, and could only stop via violence.



thank you newfound. That is the reason I joined this board. Because I like learning new things all the time. I plan to learn a lot here and it feels good to see others doing the same.

[A new found power]

"


thank you newfound. That is the reason I joined this board. Because I like learning new things all the time. I plan to learn a lot here and it feels good to see others doing the same.

It's nice to learn. it's nicer to learn whilst understanding what other people make of things aswell. It's a two in one thing Glad to see I'm not the only one who gained something from this

@shadowx. I agree to an extent. Certainly alot of witchcraft/wicca books focus on wicca. Alot of negative witchcraft/wicca books focus on satanism. People don't realise that witchcraft is not satanism, and that wicca is not witchcraft! Although, all three do have vague and very small linkings, it's more likely a misconception from past times, when people knew no better, and that has merely been carried through the years. Although, If you think about it from a wiccans perspective, they will see what they do as both wicca and witchcraft. Wicca is their religion, but witchcraft is what they will sometimes practise, hense they seem to group them together simply as "their" religion, completly forgetting that witchcraft is infact seperate in its own right. Certainly when people choose a religion it is very rare they remain open minded. Once they have chosen their path, they usually follow it, choosing to forget about any others, as it is no longer relevant to them. Fair does to them, although it is a rather annoying hinderance when I backup a referance only to find it was from a wiccan site and/or book!

It's also vaguely annoying when they start going on and on and on about the "goddess." I don't presently believe in a God itself, and it certainly is annoying to be automatically assumed to want to follow "the goddess." Moreso it's annoying because the book claims that there is both a masculine and feminine god, and then in over 300 pages made well over 25 referances in detail to the goddess, but not a single to the masculine equivilant. It seems abit sexist in itself to me.

[shadowx]

The god/goddess thing really gets me, there is no such thing as far as i am concerned. Many wiccans present their views as absolute fact, i know i am guilty of that at points but i do try to say "in my opinion" etc... since I know that i may be wrong, though i believe i am right. The thing is, if a newcomer comes here and heres people banging on with wiccan views then they have no choice almost but to go along with wicca not realising there is so much more. *sigh*

[A new found power]

The god/goddess thing really gets me, there is no such thing as far as i am concerned. Many wiccans present their views as absolute fact, i know i am guilty of that at points but i do try to say "in my opinion" etc... since I know that i may be wrong, though i believe i am right. The thing is, if a newcomer comes here and heres people banging on with wiccan views then they have no choice almost but to go along with wicca not realising there is so much more. *sigh*

I almost was lead into Wicca myself on first study of witchcraft. ALOT of sites focus purely on wicca and witchcraft as one and the same. And out of those that don't... The authors tend to be a bit... well. As a generalisation, they seem VERY either disturbed, cruel or evil. This sounds dramatic but most certainly harsh at the very least is fair. And I don't mean simple fact harsh. such as "Witchcraft does not let you fly out of this world and become god of the moon." More along the lines of "Stealing peoples lives to satisfy your own, or heal someone with stolen life, is fair game. Even without their permission." (This was a necromancer who has a website on different stems of witchcraft.)
I can't help but feel enraged by things like that. Just cruel to me. But that's not here or there.

I do also have a slight tendancy to state what I believe as absolute fact. Even though I despise others from doing so, and often confront them about it! Hippocracy in motion It's hard not to when you forget that people aren't you. I often used to prattle on to any open ears about Christianity, despite not truly dedicating myself to it. One advantage of being a novice to this however, is that I have very little true fact or opinion beyond morality issues, So I can't really do it anymore!

Certainly though now I'm interested alot more in the witchcraft / appreciating nature side of things. But NOT the goddess, God nor "I'm the high priest/ess of this coven. This is an academic achievement." Kind of thing.

[Artie]

The god/goddess thing really gets me, there is no such thing as far as i am concerned. Many wiccans present their views as absolute fact, i know i am guilty of that at points but i do try to say "in my opinion" etc... since I know that i may be wrong, though i believe i am right. The thing is, if a newcomer comes here and heres people banging on with wiccan views then they have no choice almost but to go along with wicca not realising there is so much more. *sigh*

Agreed., the three fold law and indeed karma are both lies intended to scare you. Do not believe everything you hear, there are a LOT of crazy people in paganism...

But in the same sense you may be scaring people AWAY from Wicca. Even though it isn't the only form of paganism out there (hence, the sections for christian witches, druidism and shamanism, etc.) It's still a pretty descent religion. I think that you're awesome and everything, and i've really learned a lot from your posts, but I kind of feel that many of your posts in the greeting section and the Q&A section are sort of... trying to discredit Wicca. Even though it's not your path, telling about how Wicca is this/that/not this/not that leaves little for newbies to explore.

In the same sense, they may be trying to learn more about Karma and the three-fold law by reading this topic (and in the intro section, about what makes somebody Wiccan) but are kind of discouraged because of posts like this.

I'm really sorry if I came off as rude, but I just needed to get it off my chest~

[shadowx]

You didnt sound rude, i see your point however there is a difference between learning about something and having it drilled into you. I dont mind learning about christianity, its roots, its beliefs, its characters. But i still do not believe a single letter of it's bile. Knowledge is impartial, i can learn about 2012 theories, i know they are utter rubbish but i can learn what they are, to what extent they are believed etc.... Same goes for karma, one can learn what karma is said to be and who believes in it, why, where it comes from etc... Just as i read juniperberrie's post on her views. I dont believe any of it but i can still learn about it.

i dont think anyone should be put off by what i have said but.. *shrugs* that may seem harsh but IMHO if you really want to learn about something hopefully one forum post wont affect that decision.

With regards to wicca... I see it's merits in those who have explored. If paganism is a great forest then at the edge of that forest is a tour guide, there is a concrete path through that forest 6 feet wide with a fence along it and that guide tells you that you MUST follow that path, that it is the only way through the forest. I want people to poke the tour guide in the eyes and clambered through the undergrowth, walk around in circles, climb the trees and swim through the rivers and lakes. Once they have at least looked at the rest of the "forest" then i have no right to tell them not to follow that boring path and fence, they have seen the choicies and have chosen, but in those who have not seen or considered the options i feel it is wrong for wicca to take that away from them.

It is clear i dont like wicca, i despise it truth be told, more "experienced" pagans can surely become "good" wiccans with intelligence and reason, but newbies to paganism are just fed lies and rubbish by mentally questionable people who never question or disagree but blindly follow. If someone wants to become wiccan then i have no qualms, so long as they know that there are other choices to make, some newbies dont even realise that witches arent all wiccan so in cases like that it is almost a duty of those who know the difference to explain it.

Thats my views anyway

Plus, to be honest the second quote you have up there is worded sttrongly to get a point across, that not everyone believes such things and hence suggesting to the OP that they should question their own beliefs as well as those of others. Through doubt can come strength and conviction, those who dont question their own beliefs are usually the less stable! I still stand by it though, karma is just a result of a psychological need of a feeble species!