Well more of a statement really.
I'd like to begin a discussion about the nature of paired relationships and to what degree does everyone think "roles" within it play.
Specifically, as a gay man, I am often confronted with concepts such as subs and doms, tops and bottoms etc..and I am loathe to comment about my feelings to my friends who, are comfortable playing these roles.
I am certainly not.
In seeking an other, I most definitely looking for an equal, and while the question of "who's the male?" may indicate to some the nature of that relationship, to me, the sexual roles have very little to do with the relationship in it's entirety.
I believe a person must have an other who is equal in intelligence, creativity, beauty, and bearing.
Otherwise the relationship is not equal. In fact the relationship is what I would call sick.
Now, we can shout all day about supposed dichotomies of rich and poor, ugly and pretty, young and old...but does it strike anyone as odd that relationships of this kind are deemed healthy by anyone?
Discuss.
o.k. I have a question.
The only people I've found who honestly believe that a relationship between two people can be equal are Christians, and that's only on the idea of being "equally yoked".
I think that anyone who has been in a long-term committed relationship understand that you don't build a relationship that works on the idea that it is "equal", but instead that it is "balanced".
I think that anyone who has been in a long-term committed relationship understand that you don't build a relationship that works on the idea that it is "equal", but instead that it is "balanced".
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Wolf Heart
- Posts: 384
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- Gender: Female
- Location: Iowa
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To me it is a very complicated matter. I don't believe that in a relationship you can be completely equal, but close enough to it.
I much like the roles that are sometimes in place for people, though I do understand it would be more difficult, and annoying for gay couples. Personally I like being the one who cooks and cleans, while the man works on the cars and fixes the sink.
However, I am also an independant kind of person and would get annoyed at anyone telling me that because of me being a woman I could not fix that sink or work on the car (though I do know nothing of cars.)
So I suppose I am confused on my own opinions. I guess what it really comes down to with equality is an understanding between both partners of what each of the other prefers to do and not do.
Often times it is hard to find an equal in intelligence, creativity, etc because everyone is so different and attracted to so many different things. I for one would not want to date someone who was just like me, I annoy myself most days I wouldn't want to live with another version of me.
I much like the roles that are sometimes in place for people, though I do understand it would be more difficult, and annoying for gay couples. Personally I like being the one who cooks and cleans, while the man works on the cars and fixes the sink.
However, I am also an independant kind of person and would get annoyed at anyone telling me that because of me being a woman I could not fix that sink or work on the car (though I do know nothing of cars.)
So I suppose I am confused on my own opinions. I guess what it really comes down to with equality is an understanding between both partners of what each of the other prefers to do and not do.
Often times it is hard to find an equal in intelligence, creativity, etc because everyone is so different and attracted to so many different things. I for one would not want to date someone who was just like me, I annoy myself most days I wouldn't want to live with another version of me.
~*People fear the beast within the wolf because they do not understand the beast within themselves.*~
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Shaman of Bliss
- Banned Member
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:20 am
- Gender: Female
- Location: Canada
I always get the "Whos the girl?" Question, they are so stupid. Neither of us is a girl that's why were gay! If I wanted a girl I'd be straight, gosh!
As per the Doms and etc, I'm not into SM, but I'll do what makes him and I happy, if that means pinning him to the bed, so be it. Steriotypes are for the weak, I break expectations, and predjudces.
As per the Doms and etc, I'm not into SM, but I'll do what makes him and I happy, if that means pinning him to the bed, so be it. Steriotypes are for the weak, I break expectations, and predjudces.
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amunptah777
Hi Witch,
Well I don't mean that different people don't have different abilities. I'm talking about people that are together for reasons that feed sickness.
A very intelligent person, that gets together with a person of limited mental capacity so he can control him, and the 2nd is unaware that the first is basically just interested in someone he can boss around.
A person who is wildly creative perhaps getting together with someone who likes nothing better than to watch bad sit-coms for hours and hours. The creative person might be into the relationship because it makes him feel superior
In other words, equality doesn't have to mean sameness, just a conscious decision from both parties to remain focussed on and working toward equal roles in the relationship.
Hey I donno about cars, hopefully my future wife will...or maybe we won't have a car...that'd suite me just fine.
Shaman, yah, I don't dig the fem references toward our people anyway...it's like, if a guy wants to be super-flamey, that's fine with me, not someone I'd consider dating, but hey it's his thing.
But you're right...it's like...who's the female?
And we're like...yah, we've both got external genitalia...pretty sure that ends the question.
Well I don't mean that different people don't have different abilities. I'm talking about people that are together for reasons that feed sickness.
A very intelligent person, that gets together with a person of limited mental capacity so he can control him, and the 2nd is unaware that the first is basically just interested in someone he can boss around.
A person who is wildly creative perhaps getting together with someone who likes nothing better than to watch bad sit-coms for hours and hours. The creative person might be into the relationship because it makes him feel superior
In other words, equality doesn't have to mean sameness, just a conscious decision from both parties to remain focussed on and working toward equal roles in the relationship.
Hey I donno about cars, hopefully my future wife will...or maybe we won't have a car...that'd suite me just fine.
Shaman, yah, I don't dig the fem references toward our people anyway...it's like, if a guy wants to be super-flamey, that's fine with me, not someone I'd consider dating, but hey it's his thing.
But you're right...it's like...who's the female?
And we're like...yah, we've both got external genitalia...pretty sure that ends the question.
I think some of my most enjoyable friendships are with people who seem pretty different from me on paper- younger, older, different culture. My idea is that we need to see people for who they are and accept them, enjoy them and learn from them rather than always thinking of them in relation to ourselves. I agree if you're going to live with some one of course you need to have some basic agreements and things in common. But that little bit of competitiveness is human nature and gets very tiresome. I'm married over 10 years, we get along well for the most part, we're probably pretty equal as far as the attributes originally posted, but it's been a long process, I like the life I have and have no regrets. But if anything ever happened there is no way I'd start over with someone else, it's too hard to find that balance point. I'd date and have fun with friends and family and I could go home by myself and think that would absolutely fine. So I think if people are looking for relationships that is fine, but there is no perfect person to find that will make everything easily fall into place, not that you should settle for someone who doesn't have the qualities you really want- as a lot of people do simply because they seem driven to be in a relationship- that's very unhealthy and I think more common than conciously plotting the relationship to control the other person. I don't know if there are any healthy relationships, even the happiest couples probably have a few issues that are just messed up, but relationships can be very rewarding too. Maybe the key is to realize it's just another person and you can be comfortable have a good time together, but if you're looking to that other person for a large degree of your happiness and self worth you are likely to be disappointed, I haven't exactly perfected it so I don't know. So I am confused as to my opinions too.
Kolohe
Kolohe
I am not afraid of the dark...I am the Boogeyman.
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amunptah777
Yah Kolohe,
I agree with what you're saying. I guess I wasn't specific enough about my concern.
Sure, differences in friends and lovers are spices to relationships.
I was simply presented with a situation, (of which I won't relate the details) that caused me consternation because I saw the "relationship" was clearly not equal and yet the more controlling person in the relationship was unwilling to change this status..if you know what I mean.
And I'm like...look, I don't want to be the relationship nazi or anything, but that's just sick...u know?
Thet
I agree with what you're saying. I guess I wasn't specific enough about my concern.
Sure, differences in friends and lovers are spices to relationships.
I was simply presented with a situation, (of which I won't relate the details) that caused me consternation because I saw the "relationship" was clearly not equal and yet the more controlling person in the relationship was unwilling to change this status..if you know what I mean.
And I'm like...look, I don't want to be the relationship nazi or anything, but that's just sick...u know?
Thet
Okay, I see what you mean didn't mean to seem preachy. The one I do not understand is the true submissive who is into being controlled. A different scenario than someone of limited intelligence being controlled or someone not realizing they are being manipulated (which can even happen to smart people). I would not want to control anyone, but can kind of see how the controlling partner might get off on it. I really do not understand the submissive role, I know the bit about how the submissive is supposedly really in control because they can say when to stop, but don't buy it.
Kolohe
Kolohe
I am not afraid of the dark...I am the Boogeyman.
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amunptah777
In this case, the situation borders more on slavery.
The more controlling person won't let the other out of their sight and the other person....doesn't want to be in the relationship at all.
This the former follows the latter everywhere he goes.
and I can't call the police because there is no physical proof that this abuse is happening.
The more controlling person won't let the other out of their sight and the other person....doesn't want to be in the relationship at all.
This the former follows the latter everywhere he goes.
and I can't call the police because there is no physical proof that this abuse is happening.
First of all, S&M Done Right [TM] is also called "Role Playing"
There are times and places for said things. In my experience, if you let those dynamics color the overall relationship without thorough thrashing out, you seriously risk damaging the relationship irrevocably. It's all about appropriate boundaries, and since all those boundary issues are out in the open, that means it's usually easier than, say people who don't have a communication structure like this to work around. Seriously, even people who aren't into the S&M stuff can benefit from things like safe words... even in the context of an argument! But to make that work, you have to be the kind of person who doesn't want to hurt your spouse when you feel slighted or at a disadvantage, which is highlty rare.
Yes, there are folks who model the entire relationship in a master/slave format, I know people who do it, but I don't get it and never will. If it's not in discrete pre-negotiated sessions, I can't think of it as healthy.
As for the befreaked gender issues of the gay community, I can't speak for the mens side of the locker room. My data is further corrupted by the fact that most of the gay men I hung out with were also drag queens... and the whole transvestite thing really muddies the waters. YES, I know guys who weren't into that stereotype, but not well enough (ie. they don't gush to me about their sex lives) for me to really say anything useful. Besides, it's like me talking about growing up homeless and black in the inner city.
I can't do it. I wasn't there.
But I have plenty to say about the "L" side of the room. I've sworn off telling the cluster tale in a place as massively public as this forum.
Besides, I'm a Mod... I'm not supposed to have faults or make wildly politically incorrect rants anymore.
There are times and places for said things. In my experience, if you let those dynamics color the overall relationship without thorough thrashing out, you seriously risk damaging the relationship irrevocably. It's all about appropriate boundaries, and since all those boundary issues are out in the open, that means it's usually easier than, say people who don't have a communication structure like this to work around. Seriously, even people who aren't into the S&M stuff can benefit from things like safe words... even in the context of an argument! But to make that work, you have to be the kind of person who doesn't want to hurt your spouse when you feel slighted or at a disadvantage, which is highlty rare.
Yes, there are folks who model the entire relationship in a master/slave format, I know people who do it, but I don't get it and never will. If it's not in discrete pre-negotiated sessions, I can't think of it as healthy.
As for the befreaked gender issues of the gay community, I can't speak for the mens side of the locker room. My data is further corrupted by the fact that most of the gay men I hung out with were also drag queens... and the whole transvestite thing really muddies the waters. YES, I know guys who weren't into that stereotype, but not well enough (ie. they don't gush to me about their sex lives) for me to really say anything useful. Besides, it's like me talking about growing up homeless and black in the inner city.
I can't do it. I wasn't there.
But I have plenty to say about the "L" side of the room. I've sworn off telling the cluster tale in a place as massively public as this forum.
Besides, I'm a Mod... I'm not supposed to have faults or make wildly politically incorrect rants anymore.
I must have missed the memoI'm a Mod... I'm not supposed to have faults or make wildly politically incorrect rants anymore.
Relationships are hard to begin with, why waste time trying to figure out exactly where one fits in ... it's so unlike me to even entertain the idea of 'going with the flow' but in situations like this i think it's necessary intially atleast ... places come later when things are established
Ohoh.Me and pc don't go together well.lol.[Off Topic:How was the convocation event Juniper? Do tell please.Here's me promoting Raven again,I swear I am not paid for this.Big lolz.]
GENERAL WARNING:Sexual content in link.If this will offend: don't read it.
I've got a link here,Kolohe.It is in regard to the ordeal path and BDSM in the Neo Pagan world.It may help with understanding of this and it is a very interesting read.You should read some of the other site content/articles also.It can be hard to understand dominance / submission,especially from the outside but we all have some knowledge of this,to an extent as we will exhibit preferences in certain areas of our lives,with partners and in relationships in regard to this.I am a very dominant personality [gee...no...what a surprise!...lolz] but my partner is surprisingly good at reading me and employing a quiet/subtle persuasion style that borders on reverse psychology! Damn him!lol again.I listen to him,his perspective is valued,he contrasts me well.
http://www.sensuoussadie.com/articles/r ... alpath.htm
GENERAL WARNING:Sexual content in link.If this will offend: don't read it.
I've got a link here,Kolohe.It is in regard to the ordeal path and BDSM in the Neo Pagan world.It may help with understanding of this and it is a very interesting read.You should read some of the other site content/articles also.It can be hard to understand dominance / submission,especially from the outside but we all have some knowledge of this,to an extent as we will exhibit preferences in certain areas of our lives,with partners and in relationships in regard to this.I am a very dominant personality [gee...no...what a surprise!...lolz] but my partner is surprisingly good at reading me and employing a quiet/subtle persuasion style that borders on reverse psychology! Damn him!lol again.I listen to him,his perspective is valued,he contrasts me well.
http://www.sensuoussadie.com/articles/r ... alpath.htm
Oh blast it! I should have guessed I'd be ratted out by a fellow mod.I'm a Mod... I'm not supposed to have faults or make wildly politically incorrect rants anymore.
I must have missed the memo
That was not only tongue-in-cheek, but my excuse for, "I don't want to get into it right now". Seriously, before I sensored myself, I ranted viciously to the point of offending... myself.
Some day I'll tell you about it, maybe over a white russian or something, but I'm still not comfortable airing that particular piece of my dirty frilly laundry.
((EDIT) Eretik: I plan on posting a full report in my blog. Not quite yet, though, I'll post it in a day or two)