Hell or no Hell?

[Shadow_Kitten]

No hell, no heaven.

This ain't a dress rehearsal.

Ditto. That's a real good way of putting it, lol. I don't know what will happen when i die but I believe that I'll go to the Summerlands where I'll stay until I'm reborn again. Or perhaps I won't be reborn again, perhaps the Goddess has something else in store for me, i don't know. I'll find out one day, lol.

[Tymar]

I was raised in a Catholic household, and understand the whole heaven / hell concept.
Yet it didn’t make much sense to me when i was a child.
So this was the start of me pulling away and following what I believed within myself to be right.

Many year later, I found myself at deaths door, and faced what I personally feel was my judgement.. ( i cant think of another word to call it).
It want anyone judging me… but myself judging my own actions, and certain thoughts came to me in the presences of something very spectacular ( I wish I could find words).

After reading some of the ideas in this post, on astrally creating a space or energy, maybe this could be created within our own spiritual self as it separates from the physical, as watersheild said..
And maybe that’s why I experienced what I did.
I was given a choice to stay and learn more, and im glad i choose to stay.
This event touched me on so many levels, some I am still learning.

BB. Tymar

[oracle's child]

thank you to everyone that took the time to answer. for years i thought there were only two choices when you die, heaven or hell. the older i got i questioned things and alot didn't make any sense. at one point (around 21 or so) i became so critical of myself because i started going to church again and overly aware of "sin". i actually lost a good friend of mine because i made him so miserable with my new awareness. then i remember reading that if i even thought something wrong it was as if i had done the thing so finally i thought, well, what the hell i'm doomed to fail anyway? thank goodness this only lasted about 2 months or so, i couldn't stand myself and thought if i didn't do something about my frame of mind that i was headed for a nervous breakdown. i'm not sure where i'm going when i die either but i have a hard time believing that it will be in a lake of fire because i don't see things the christian way. it has never occurred to me to tell someone that if they didn't believe in what i believe that they would be eternally punished and cut off from God.

[Heka]

u no, sometimes hell looks pretty cool. i mean if u get a choice of pearly white and gowns and halos and chastity OR hot, sexc people in hot costumes (as it looks sometimes) enjoying themselves which ever whay they like i know where id wanna go....

but my personal opinion is no heaven or hell. eos

[Lexi]

There are so many different beliefs about what happens when we die, that it's really hard to answer your question. I personally believe in the "existence", if I can use that word, of Summerland. It just seems to me a possible explanation, but the truth is, no one could ever know...

I personally don't believe a person that thinks he will go to Hell will go to Hell. Firstly because I don't even believe Hell exists. But even if I believed in the existance of Heaven and Hell, I would like to think that if someone (a Christian) was a good person, his thinking that he was a bad person and would go to Hell wouldn't affect God's decision at all.

What you said, though, really made me think. If the after-life really depends on the perception of a person, if nothing like Heaven, Hell or Summerland exist, then yeah, maybe someone could condemn himself to an eternity of torture just because he strongly believed it so.

This is a great question... I'll have to think more about this subject...

[Pixini]

For Heaven or Hell to exist, we must have a clear definition of what is "right" and what is "wrong"; and what is "good" and what is "bad".

How does one define "good/right"? A Christian would say that homosexuality is "wrong/bad". A Christian would also say that engaging in sexual acts unwed is "wrong/bad". A Christian might also say that coveting your neighbor's wife is "wrong/bad" as well.

Those are just a few of the host of "bad deeds" that one can commit as a Christian.

Now, IS homosexuality truly "bad/wrong"? Is it wrong for a human to love and make love with another human being that happens to have the same genitalia? Or is it wrong for a human to love another human, engage in sexual behavior with another human being and not achieve reproduction? Is it wrong for someone to do what they wish to do behind closed doors at night?

In order for that to be wrong, we would have to call its opposite "right"---which means, heterosexual relationships resulting in reproduction is the "right way".

Is it wrong for an unwed couple fo engage in sexual behavior if it is consensual and wanted?

Is it wrong for a man to flirt with another man's wife? It it REALLY wrong?

I have my own opinions to those questions; and you will have your own as well. Chances are, we will all feel differently and have opposing ideas as to what is right/wrong and good/bad.

So which one of us is right? And which one of us is wrong?

The Earth has 6+billion people, and growing----multiply that number by the millions of facets that make up our individual persons. Then multiply that by cultural influences, environmental factors, religious backrounds, family influences, and personal ideas and opinions.

Is there ONE PERSON who is the embodiment of everything that is good/right?

If so, who would that be? A white Christian American? A black Muslim? A Jew? A cannibalistic tribesman? A homosexual? Or what about a combination of all of the above?

It is impossible for any of us---and I don't give a shit what the Bible says---to define what is right or wrong. Murder, in my eyes, would be wrong. But if I were a tribesman in a cannibalistic society, it would not be wrong because that is my "norm"----therefore, "wrong" is only the result of what my society tells me.

The same goes for what is right. My husband thought defending Iraq was the right thing to do. I thought it was stupid and immature. Both of us had points, and both of us had pitfalls in our thinking. Neither was right or wrong---bad or good----

because right/wrong bad/good dosen't exist

All we can know for certain is our perception---our truth. If all of us were looking at a jar of jellybeans, we would all be seeing the same object; yet we would be viewing them differently because we are looking at it from various angles. Your jar might have more light; mine may have more red jellybeans. You may feel good about the jar because you like jellybeans; and I might want to throw it across the room because I don't like the flavor of red jellybeans at all.

Same object---different perceptions---different reactions/feelings/thoughts.

Multiply that by a billion.....and then try to define exactly what is right/wrong or good/bad.

You can't. All you can say for certain is what YOU THINK IS RIGHT FOR YOU.

For hell to exist, we would have to be judged by someone or something that is absolutely perfect. Yet, it is obvious that perfection does not exist because we cannot clearly define what is all good and right; due to the fact we have a zillion different facets to the human experience.

Plus, to be judged....means that our lives are not our own. If we are to live our lives according to an outline of what we are "supposed" to do in order to get to a "good" place (good, according to who?), than we are not living our lives.

We are simply allowing ourselves to be controlled with fear and intimidation.

A personal hell if you ask me.

I do not believe in hell or heaven; as I do not believe or support in any way, this idea that the human experience can be compartamentalized in such a limited fashion. I choose not to insult my divinity and my brilliance in such a way. Nor do I believe ANY human should be judged based on THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE.

Does that mean I don't think murder is wrong? Of course I do. I think anytime one harms another is wrong; but that is MY truth. However, I am not perfect; therefore, do I TRULY know if that person deseves to be in hell? I might have my opinon......

but whose opinion means the most?

Jesus? Allah? Abraham?

Our our own, since we are the ones living the experience?

Yeah...LOL... I know. I'm complicated.

[hedge*]

Not complicated at all pixini.
That was a very well thought out and articulated post and one that completely reflects my own beliefs.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[[EarthWitch]]

You are right on Pixini! I agree totally. You have articulated my feelings as well!

[oracle's child]

you know Pixini, what you wrote makes me want to run off billions of copies and drop them all over the world. i guess it goes without saying that if more people thought this way (not just christians either) what burdens this would relieve from many. there would be little or no religious repression. as a matter of fact i just may run off a copy or two and the next time some know it all decides to engage me in an arguement about how their way is better, i'll just hand them your words (you say it so much better than i ever could) and sit back and watch. you have a gift with words. thank you.

[Pixini]

Thank you all so much for your kind words. And how wonderful that we are connected on such a fundamental level. It makes the world a lot less lonely feeling.

I did not obtain this philosophy easy. I think I mentioned in my intro that my upbringing was severe, abusive on every level the word can mean, and based on a belief system that was clearly defined by yes/no, black/white, right/wrong, etc.

An example:

Getting a C in school was always wrong, a sign of laziness, symbolic of a "human not worthy of living" (according to my mother).

A "B" was still "wrong" because it meant that I was only "skimming by" and not using my full intellectual potential. A person who just "skims by", according to my mother, is worse than pond scum, because it was a sign of arrogance and laziness of a manipulative nature.

An "A", believe it or not, was still "wrong". My mother would say, "Well, you only pulled your grade up because you got punished, so it's not like your effort MEANS anything sincere".

What if I brought home a D or an F on a grade card? One would think my life would be over, or I would be beaten to death.

I brought home a D once in Geometry ( I just couldn't understand that subject!). Fully expecting to receive fire and brimstone, my mother coddled me and comforted me, telling me she could learn to accept that I am stupid and disabled of the brain.

So, I equated success with abuse; and failure with care and comfort.

Imagine that mindset and value system in EVERY area of life---and that was how I was brought up.

My family was also Catholic; so everytime I was "wrong", I was going to hell, obviously.

As I grew older into teenagehood, my mother was certain that I was nothing more than a piece of shit who was just born by mistake. God would deal with me accordingly when my time comes.

Therefore, as I entered my adult life, I had some seriously screwy beliefs and I was very rigid in my expectations of myself, as well as others.

Highly critical of everyone around me, angry, strict, unfeeling and and ambitious, I was a young girl who intimidated everyone because I was the first person to judge, evaluate, label and overall berate anything and anyone that did adhere to what I believed.

The problem was, I believed everything was wrong and bad because that is all I had ever been taught!

It took a nervous breakdown, a couple of hospital trips, and many years of therapy to overcome those issues. Thankfully, I did overcome them, and learned that the rest of the world isn't wrong, nor am I a bad person.

Over the years, I have come to understand and accept what I wrote in my first post in this thread. There IS no such thing as right or wrong. All that I can be certain of is how I feel, and what I think. All I can control is my behavior.

The rest is not for me to judge; because my experience, though horrific, is only ONE amongst billions of other experiences by people with another billion different factoring influences. My mother isn't in control because she is only one person amongst a billion.

I am in control of my own life. My choices are my own.

So, literally, I began my entire life over by handpicking a belief system that made me feel whole and beautiful and full of life again.

Most of all, I chose to love all creatures because I remembered how much I needed that love for myself, but didn't have it. My worst fear is that another being feel the way I once did.

Though I cannot change lives if they are not willing to be changed, I can certainly draw comfort knowing that I have done all that I can to love another.

So is there a hell? I honestly don't think so anymore. I think our hell is the one we create for ourselves here. So many of us want to be in control of everything; and the way we achieve that feeling is to label and seek answers to questions that maybe we just aren't meant to know.

I think hell is an idea that was invented to control masses of people, much like my mother tried to control me with her senseless punishments and "rules". Christians tell us we are going to hell if we do (whatever); yet Christ will forgive us unconditionally, because He loves us?!?!?!

I just don't get that....seriously. Unconditional love means to love....DESPITE our flaws and mistakes. God says He loves us, IF, we worship him and IF we don't screw up. He'll forgive us IF we turn to him and only him.

That sounds frighteningly like an abusive home, dosen't it?

Anyway....I've gotten way off topic. Just thought I'd expand on what I consider a very difficult philosophy to grasp about bad/good not existing. I should say, it was difficult for me.

But so worth it because it saved my life.

Again, thank you for your kindness. It humbles me.

[Pixini]

Thank you all so much for your kind words. And how wonderful that we are connected on such a fundamental level. It makes the world a lot less lonely feeling.

I did not obtain this philosophy easy. I think I mentioned in my intro that my upbringing was severe, abusive on every level the word can mean, and based on a belief system that was clearly defined by yes/no, black/white, right/wrong, etc.

An example:

Getting a C in school was always wrong, a sign of laziness, symbolic of a "human not worthy of living" (according to my mother).

A "B" was still "wrong" because it meant that I was only "skimming by" and not using my full intellectual potential. A person who just "skims by", according to my mother, is worse than pond scum, because it was a sign of arrogance and laziness of a manipulative nature.

An "A", believe it or not, was still "wrong". My mother would say, "Well, you only pulled your grade up because you got punished, so it's not like your effort MEANS anything sincere".

What if I brought home a D or an F on a grade card? One would think my life would be over, or I would be beaten to death.

I brought home a D once in Geometry ( I just couldn't understand that subject!). Fully expecting to receive fire and brimstone, my mother coddled me and comforted me, telling me she could learn to accept that I am stupid and disabled of the brain.

So, I equated success with abuse; and failure with care and comfort.

Imagine that mindset and value system in EVERY area of life---and that was how I was brought up.

My family was also Catholic; so everytime I was "wrong", I was going to hell, obviously.

As I grew older into teenagehood, my mother was certain that I was nothing more than a piece of shit who was just born by mistake. God would deal with me accordingly when my time comes.

Therefore, as I entered my adult life, I had some seriously screwy beliefs and I was very rigid in my expectations of myself, as well as others.

Highly critical of everyone around me, angry, strict, unfeeling and and ambitious, I was a young girl who intimidated everyone because I was the first person to judge, evaluate, label and overall berate anything and anyone that did adhere to what I believed.

The problem was, I believed everything was wrong and bad because that is all I had ever been taught!

It took a nervous breakdown, a couple of hospital trips, and many years of therapy to overcome those issues. Thankfully, I did overcome them, and learned that the rest of the world isn't wrong, nor am I a bad person.

Over the years, I have come to understand and accept what I wrote in my first post in this thread. There IS no such thing as right or wrong. All that I can be certain of is how I feel, and what I think. All I can control is my behavior.

The rest is not for me to judge; because my experience, though horrific, is only ONE amongst billions of other experiences by people with another billion different factoring influences. My mother isn't in control because she is only one person amongst a billion.

I am in control of my own life. My choices are my own.

So, literally, I began my entire life over by handpicking a belief system that made me feel whole and beautiful and full of life again.

Most of all, I chose to love all creatures because I remembered how much I needed that love for myself, but didn't have it. My worst fear is that another being feel the way I once did.

Though I cannot change lives if they are not willing to be changed, I can certainly draw comfort knowing that I have done all that I can to love another.

So is there a hell? I honestly don't think so anymore. I think our hell is the one we create for ourselves here. So many of us want to be in control of everything; and the way we achieve that feeling is to label and seek answers to questions that maybe we just aren't meant to know.

I think hell is an idea that was invented to control masses of people, much like my mother tried to control me with her senseless punishments and "rules". Christians tell us we are going to hell if we do (whatever); yet Christ will forgive us unconditionally, because He loves us?!?!?!

I just don't get that....seriously. Unconditional love means to love....DESPITE our flaws and mistakes. God says He loves us, IF, we worship him and IF we don't screw up. He'll forgive us IF we turn to him and only him.

That sounds frighteningly like an abusive home, dosen't it?

Anyway....I've gotten way off topic. Just thought I'd expand on what I consider a very difficult philosophy to grasp about bad/good not existing. I should say, it was difficult for me.

But so worth it because it saved my life.

Again, thank you for your kindness. It humbles me.

[Makbawehuh]

And after all the wonderful articulation... You get me.

Hell, Schmell. I don't believe in an afterlife, so it's not relevant to me.

'Sides, I spent time as a Catholic too! I KNOW I get to go to hell after deciding I'd rather be there anyways and rejecting God! ^__^

So, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, unless Hell doesn't exist... Which makes the whole point totally moot, thus granting me, as a human being, the right to be as absolutely (a)moral as I please, and giving me total control over my own actions with no excuses to anyone.

Very freeing, the whole "not having to worry about the afterlife" thing.

[EalainCoill]

I'm not ready to believe much about what happens after we die. Hell has always made the least sense to me, out of all the possibilities.

Assume that God made the Earth, and men and everything. He also gave us the power of choice. Let us also assume that he gave us all immortal souls. Why would he send some of us to live our immortal lives in a place so horrible has Hell? For fun? That doesn't seem much fun - especially when you consider most of the damning actions that people commit are done because they were victimized by society and, for example, committing suicide is NOT their fault. And, then, what would the point of heaven be? If you know that your fellow man is suffering immeasurable pain in Hell, it seems that you'd have to be pretty evil to not be eternally bothered by that. If you are in heaven and have no knowledge of those in Hell, that also seems like heaven is not such a great place - to live for eternity in ignorance. Great. If the Christian idea of the afterlife exists, it would make much more sense for all to live in heaven, with all earthly damage lifted from their hearts.

The thing that makes the most sense, and also scares me the most, is the thought that nothing happens. We all cease to be. I like existing, thanks.

Personal experience has led me to believe that ghosts may exist, leaving me with many more questions about the afterlife, and it also makes the afterlife seem much more exciting.

[Collective Insight]

Just Think About It :idea:

Hell is a state of mind

[HallowHim]

I'm not ready to believe much about what happens after we die. Hell has always made the least sense to me, out of all the possibilities.

Assume that God made the Earth, and men and everything. He also gave us the power of choice. Let us also assume that he gave us all immortal souls. Why would he send some of us to live our immortal lives in a place so horrible has Hell? For fun? That doesn't seem much fun - especially when you consider most of the damning actions that people commit are done because they were victimized by society and, for example, committing suicide is NOT their fault. And, then, what would the point of heaven be? If you know that your fellow man is suffering immeasurable pain in Hell, it seems that you'd have to be pretty evil to not be eternally bothered by that. If you are in heaven and have no knowledge of those in Hell, that also seems like heaven is not such a great place - to live for eternity in ignorance. Great. If the Christian idea of the afterlife exists, it would make much more sense for all to live in heaven, with all earthly damage lifted from their hearts.

The thing that makes the most sense, and also scares me the most, is the thought that nothing happens. We all cease to be. I like existing, thanks.

Personal experience has led me to believe that ghosts may exist, leaving me with many more questions about the afterlife, and it also makes the afterlife seem much more exciting.

WTF????

the red one - we all now that hell will be a horrible place... but god send us here to test us.. that means he want's to see if we will agree his order of beeing good person....that's a big sacrifice...

the blue one - you're so wrong... if you are more evil you will turn over much more and much profoundly in hell ... and will be much PAINFULLY your jurney in hell

the violet - why you think that heaven is not such a great place? you've seen it?