Physicist Neil Turok: Big Bang Wasn't the Beginning

[blackswordca]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

[hicksfan]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

surely you jest. do me one favor, just don't say you're as serious about it as i am because i think we found your limit. that reminds me of the bit in spinal tap where the drummer choked on another person's vomit and scotland yard said "it's best to leave that one unsolved...."

[Crowfeather]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

If ANYONE could prove any religion to be true in a scientific study or experiment, it would have been done long ago.

I thought this theory makes sense. Time always has been, there was no beginning. I've read this theory somewhere else before, so I understand the concept behind it, though I'm no einstien and could never work the math.

And hicksfan, I understand you created the thread, but if you don't choose your words more carefully, people will start ignoring you. If you talk like your word is better just because science said so and call everyone else's opinions bullshit, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

I suggest you use kinder words. Instead of saying 'bullshit', you could say that it doesn't make sense, or that theory has holes in it. Instead of stating your words like you know 150% they are true, state "i strongly believe' or that you 'trust' in this theory.

You did start the thread, but if you come to a spirituality thread (Spiritual and Pagan Message Board, right there at the top of the screen) to state scientific theory, you're the one in the wrong place. We come here in perfect love and perfect trust, just like in a ritual. And with that love and trust we have respect for one another's beliefs.

[hicksfan]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

If ANYONE could prove any religion to be true in a scientific study or experiment, it would have been done long ago.

I thought this theory makes sense. Time always has been, there was no beginning. I've read this theory somewhere else before, so I understand the concept behind it, though I'm no einstien and could never work the math.

And hicksfan, I understand you created the thread, but if you don't choose your words more carefully, people will start ignoring you. If you talk like your word is better just because science said so and call everyone else's opinions bullshit, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

I suggest you use kinder words. Instead of saying 'bullshit', you could say that it doesn't make sense, or that theory has holes in it. Instead of stating your words like you know 150% they are true, state "i strongly believe' or that you 'trust' in this theory.

You did start the thread, but if you come to a spirituality thread (Spiritual and Pagan Message Board, right there at the top of the screen) to state scientific theory, you're the one in the wrong place. We come here in perfect love and perfect trust, just like in a ritual. And with that love and trust we have respect for one another's beliefs.

i said i called bullshit on an argument we would find nothing if we stay naive and stuck with what only we see. and i gave strong evidence to support that notion as false. it really isn't about opinion at that level.

SPIRITUALITY is the search for truth, how does the scientific method not apply? it's RELIGION that's a search for comfort. i'm sorry, but i don't respect fiction. and that's what a lot of people are hanging their hat on. if an intelligent conversation can't be had here, i'll move on.

[Crowfeather]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

If ANYONE could prove any religion to be true in a scientific study or experiment, it would have been done long ago.

I thought this theory makes sense. Time always has been, there was no beginning. I've read this theory somewhere else before, so I understand the concept behind it, though I'm no einstien and could never work the math.

And hicksfan, I understand you created the thread, but if you don't choose your words more carefully, people will start ignoring you. If you talk like your word is better just because science said so and call everyone else's opinions bullshit, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

I suggest you use kinder words. Instead of saying 'bullshit', you could say that it doesn't make sense, or that theory has holes in it. Instead of stating your words like you know 150% they are true, state "i strongly believe' or that you 'trust' in this theory.

You did start the thread, but if you come to a spirituality thread (Spiritual and Pagan Message Board, right there at the top of the screen) to state scientific theory, you're the one in the wrong place. We come here in perfect love and perfect trust, just like in a ritual. And with that love and trust we have respect for one another's beliefs.

i said i called bullshit on an argument we would find nothing if we stay naive and stuck with what only we see. and i gave strong evidence to support that notion as false. it really isn't about opinion at that level.

SPIRITUALITY is the search for truth, how does the scientific method not apply? it's RELIGION that's a search for comfort. i'm sorry, but i don't respect fiction. and that's what a lot of people are hanging their hat on. if an intelligent conversation can't be had here, i'll move on.

I won't deny you're intelligent, and you have many good points. We like to see that in the thread.

To me, Spirituality is the search for one's own personal truth. That can be entirely different than your personal truth. We each can apply a scientific method to our own path, but one of the first things you learn here is that Paganism is definitely NOT a cookie cutter religion. We don't accept one idea blindly. Just look around the forum. All the posts are different, but they are all true to that person.

I seriously doubt anyone seeking comfort will become Pagan in the first place. If they just wanted it that easy, they'd pick up the bible where everything is black and white and they don't have to think for themselves.

Try to be a little open minded. Columbus rejected the accepted truth that the world was flat, and look who was right?

And perhaps you're the one searching for comfort. With science, everything is proven, and you don't have to do any thinking for yourself. All the Witches here have walked their own personal spiritual path, searching for their own truth. Most of us will walk it for many more years, the rest of our lives. Science can been seen as a religion just as easily as any spiritual agenda.

Perhaps your fiction is our truth? I'm sure if you're god and you decide what is true and false, you have every right to not respect it. But until you're all knowing, you'd damn well better respect everyone else's 'fiction'.

[hicksfan]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

If ANYONE could prove any religion to be true in a scientific study or experiment, it would have been done long ago.

I thought this theory makes sense. Time always has been, there was no beginning. I've read this theory somewhere else before, so I understand the concept behind it, though I'm no einstien and could never work the math.

And hicksfan, I understand you created the thread, but if you don't choose your words more carefully, people will start ignoring you. If you talk like your word is better just because science said so and call everyone else's opinions bullshit, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

I suggest you use kinder words. Instead of saying 'bullshit', you could say that it doesn't make sense, or that theory has holes in it. Instead of stating your words like you know 150% they are true, state "i strongly believe' or that you 'trust' in this theory.

You did start the thread, but if you come to a spirituality thread (Spiritual and Pagan Message Board, right there at the top of the screen) to state scientific theory, you're the one in the wrong place. We come here in perfect love and perfect trust, just like in a ritual. And with that love and trust we have respect for one another's beliefs.

i said i called bullshit on an argument we would find nothing if we stay naive and stuck with what only we see. and i gave strong evidence to support that notion as false. it really isn't about opinion at that level.

SPIRITUALITY is the search for truth, how does the scientific method not apply? it's RELIGION that's a search for comfort. i'm sorry, but i don't respect fiction. and that's what a lot of people are hanging their hat on. if an intelligent conversation can't be had here, i'll move on.

I won't deny you're intelligent, and you have many good points. We like to see that in the thread.

To me, Spirituality is the search for one's own personal truth. That can be entirely different than your personal truth. We each can apply a scientific method to our own path, but one of the first things you learn here is that Paganism is definitely NOT a cookie cutter religion. We don't accept one idea blindly. Just look around the forum. All the posts are different, but they are all true to that person.

I seriously doubt anyone seeking comfort will become Pagan in the first place. If they just wanted it that easy, they'd pick up the bible where everything is black and white and they don't have to think for themselves.

Try to be a little open minded. Columbus rejected the accepted truth that the world was flat, and look who was right?

And perhaps you're the one searching for comfort. With science, everything is proven, and you don't have to do any thinking for yourself. All the Witches here have walked their own personal spiritual path, searching for their own truth. Most of us will walk it for many more years, the rest of our lives. Science can been seen as a religion just as easily as any spiritual agenda.

Perhaps your fiction is our truth? I'm sure if you're god and you decide what is true and false, you have every right to not respect it. But until you're all knowing, you'd damn well better respect everyone else's 'fiction'.

i'm not the one searching for comfort. my argument is the mechanics of the universe, put in proper perspective, is more grand and glorious than any false notions we have about it or incorrect assessments. in my worldview, there's no reward or punishment for the believer/non-believer. only the benefit of applying true information to our lives to enjoy it more fully. not everything has been proven with science, but the science onhand today does disprove a lot of false notions. once we establish something as true, it's our RESPONSIBILITY to pass that information on so we can all learn and evolve into better people. in order to do that, you must overcome what you fear and despise. not just label it "hands off" because that's what you believe. that's religion. i'm not religious.

[blackswordca]

surely you jest. do me one favor, just don't say you're as serious about it as i am because i think we found your limit.

Faith gives a lot of people focus and hope, It gives people reasons to better themselves. Take that away and what do you have? The cruelest fate I can think of.

[hicksfan]

surely you jest. do me one favor, just don't say you're as serious about it as i am because i think we found your limit.

Faith gives a lot of people focus and hope, It gives people reasons to better themselves. Take that away and what do you have? The cruelest fate I can think of.

understood, but faith requires moderation just like everything else. you can't just go hogwild because you feel you can. what's the point in that?

[Crowfeather]

lol... pagans are the new christians? the burden of proof is ALWAYS upon the believer. this board also refers to spirituality which is a search for truth. i created this thread, you should be the one taking it somewhere else if you can't substantiate what you hold to be true. that's all i'm asking, why does that hurt your feelings?

Personally I think proving that the things that we have faith in, whether it be Christian, Pagan, Islamic ect would be one of the worst days in our existence.

If ANYONE could prove any religion to be true in a scientific study or experiment, it would have been done long ago.

I thought this theory makes sense. Time always has been, there was no beginning. I've read this theory somewhere else before, so I understand the concept behind it, though I'm no einstien and could never work the math.

And hicksfan, I understand you created the thread, but if you don't choose your words more carefully, people will start ignoring you. If you talk like your word is better just because science said so and call everyone else's opinions bullshit, you're going to piss off a lot of people.

I suggest you use kinder words. Instead of saying 'bullshit', you could say that it doesn't make sense, or that theory has holes in it. Instead of stating your words like you know 150% they are true, state "i strongly believe' or that you 'trust' in this theory.

You did start the thread, but if you come to a spirituality thread (Spiritual and Pagan Message Board, right there at the top of the screen) to state scientific theory, you're the one in the wrong place. We come here in perfect love and perfect trust, just like in a ritual. And with that love and trust we have respect for one another's beliefs.

i said i called bullshit on an argument we would find nothing if we stay naive and stuck with what only we see. and i gave strong evidence to support that notion as false. it really isn't about opinion at that level.

SPIRITUALITY is the search for truth, how does the scientific method not apply? it's RELIGION that's a search for comfort. i'm sorry, but i don't respect fiction. and that's what a lot of people are hanging their hat on. if an intelligent conversation can't be had here, i'll move on.

I won't deny you're intelligent, and you have many good points. We like to see that in the thread.

To me, Spirituality is the search for one's own personal truth. That can be entirely different than your personal truth. We each can apply a scientific method to our own path, but one of the first things you learn here is that Paganism is definitely NOT a cookie cutter religion. We don't accept one idea blindly. Just look around the forum. All the posts are different, but they are all true to that person.

I seriously doubt anyone seeking comfort will become Pagan in the first place. If they just wanted it that easy, they'd pick up the bible where everything is black and white and they don't have to think for themselves.

Try to be a little open minded. Columbus rejected the accepted truth that the world was flat, and look who was right?

And perhaps you're the one searching for comfort. With science, everything is proven, and you don't have to do any thinking for yourself. All the Witches here have walked their own personal spiritual path, searching for their own truth. Most of us will walk it for many more years, the rest of our lives. Science can been seen as a religion just as easily as any spiritual agenda.

Perhaps your fiction is our truth? I'm sure if you're god and you decide what is true and false, you have every right to not respect it. But until you're all knowing, you'd damn well better respect everyone else's 'fiction'.

once we establish something as true, it's our RESPONSIBILITY to pass that information on so we can all learn and evolve into better people.

Just like the Christians did when they slaughtered everyone who diddn't agree? Because it's their responsibility to pass on the word of god?

[hicksfan]

Just like the Christians did when they slaughtered everyone who diddn't agree? Because it's their responsibility to pass on the word of god?

being a little melodramatic, aren't we? why do you all feel so challenged when asked what validity you have to your beliefs you so freely throw around?

[blackswordca]

surely you jest. do me one favor, just don't say you're as serious about it as i am because i think we found your limit.

Faith gives a lot of people focus and hope, It gives people reasons to better themselves. Take that away and what do you have? The cruelest fate I can think of.

understood, but faith requires moderation just like everything else. you can't just go hogwild because you feel you can. what's the point in that?

true enough, but who sets the limit, or do we exercise our free will and decide for yourselves. How much belief is too much? How much is not enough?

At the end of the day its not what we believe or who we believe in. What matters is what we aspire to due because of it. And that is faith in a deity, faith in spirits or ghosts, or faith in human science and human understanding.

[Crowfeather]

Just like the Christians did when they slaughtered everyone who diddn't agree? Because it's their responsibility to pass on the word of god?

being a little melodramatic, aren't we? why do you all feel so challenged when asked what validity you have to your beliefs you so freely throw around?

Why do you feel so challenged when we don't accept your 'truth' just because it has the name brand of science on it?
It's not melodrama, it's a metaphor. I was comparing how you feel so compelled to bludgeon people over the head with your truth just like the crusading christians did.

[hicksfan]

Just like the Christians did when they slaughtered everyone who diddn't agree? Because it's their responsibility to pass on the word of god?

being a little melodramatic, aren't we? why do you all feel so challenged when asked what validity you have to your beliefs you so freely throw around?

Why do you feel so challenged when we don't accept your 'truth' just because it has the name brand of science on it?
It's not melodrama, it's a metaphor. I was comparing how you feel so compelled to bludgeon people over the head with your truth just like the crusading christians did.

i posted an article. people started describing higher beings, i asked for validity in those claims. none was given, people would rather spout off you can't prove everything rather than address the topic they created (not me). it was insinuated we would find nothing if we stay naive with what we can prove. i called that bullshit and showed it was a false notion. now all the sudden i'm the attacker?

i'm not saying you have to believe what i believe, but you better damn well be able to explain what you believe if you throw it out there. i'm puzzled as to where the foul is in that?

[hicksfan]

true enough, but who sets the limit, or do we exercise our free will and decide for yourselves. How much belief is too much? How much is not enough?

At the end of the day its not what we believe or who we believe in. What matters is what we aspire to due because of it. And that is faith in a deity, faith in spirits or ghosts, or faith in human science and human understanding.

you're free to think whatever, but you should be able to rationally explain why you hold that to be true instead of just saying you can't prove everything. to me, that's a cop out. if people insist there's a fairy in the well, they should have some basis other than that they just want to believe there's a fairy in the well.

[blackswordca]

true enough, but who sets the limit, or do we exercise our free will and decide for yourselves. How much belief is too much? How much is not enough?

At the end of the day its not what we believe or who we believe in. What matters is what we aspire to due because of it. And that is faith in a deity, faith in spirits or ghosts, or faith in human science and human understanding.

you're free to think whatever, but you should be able to rationally explain why you hold that to be true instead of just saying you can't prove everything. to me, that's a cop out. if people insist there's a fairy in the well, they should have some basis other than that they just want to believe there's a fairy in the well.

Then I suppose this is a cop out. I don't have a complete and total understanding of the universe so I cannot prove what I believe is real. I just believe there is more to life, more to our world then what we as humans can see and test.

My faith gives me something to take comfort in, that this existence is just a step on the journey to total understanding.