Everything Under the Moon

Hehe. I think there is such a push to have children in some countries like Australia - so that our population doesn't dwindle, so that we are vulnerable in a militaristic sense. It's one of the reasons America and Australia were both so eager to originally accept immigrants - simply put - it increases our population, military strength, and prevents our chance of being 'conquered', and increases our chance of being conquerors.

It's a fairly political view of it. I think it's more complicated than that, but in essence - big population = even when you run out resources, you can just badger everyone else into giving you theirs!

Most of my friends don't want children, and I'm of the 'never having children' party. I'm also one of those people who think that families should only be allowed to have two children, and if they want more, they should consider fostering homeless or orphaned children. I've fielded a lot of criticism for such views (from my Mum for example), but that's just the way I am. Over-population to me is a crucial problem that can be negotiated successfully, and I think one of the signs of this is many couple's natural response to go 'well, I just don't want any...and I'm fine with that.'

and I never understood why it is some "requirement" for each human life to make babies. It's not even a matter of religion anymore, it seems there is just some need to have children.

We "need" children, because it's built into us. I don't think it was ever a 'matter of religion', really . The basic purpose of any animal is to be born, reproduce with other animals, thus expanding the gene pool and preserving the species, and then die. It's only us humans that have attached any greater 'need' and 'purpose' to life.. Since our lives have been expanded thanks to medical technology, such that we have more time to do other things.

But humans are animals.. We all still have those basic 'needs' built into us, hence many people feel they 'need' children. Of course, some choose not to have children.. And, thanks to our general 'individual freedom' as a 'developed species', it is a choice we can make. We've 'evolved' beyond the point of simply wanting to reproduce in our life (even if our body disagrees and tells us otherwise), and many people have other goals. Nothing wrong with that at all .

It'd just do us well to remember that humans are still animals. The only thing different is we think we're the 'best' and 'most developed', because we have a 'free society' and technology to help us prolong our lives. By no means am I saying the fact that we're animals means we should have kids, no matter what.. I'm simply pointing out that if it seems like everybody thinks we 'need' to have children.. It's because that's what's built into our bodies .

Ramble, ramble.. It's all I ever do . I don't mean to - apologies!

Elem

I don't really think it's built into our bodies. I think it's built into our minds and enforced by society. I think that reproduction is something that can be governed by our minds, so we don't have to be controlled by our bodies. Otherwise, it's like saying that cheating is built into our bodies too. And yes, I know that some people do say that. They also normally attribute it to males, and I just don't buy that.
Well, done rambling

I would agree that we are socialized into believing that we "need" to have children. Most people do not consider children an option. The option they think they have is "when" to have kids, not "whether" to have kids. My sister didn't realize she had been conditioned that way until she read the book, "I'm Okay, You're a Brat" (which I loaned her.) Most women and men simply assume they'll grow up and have kids, just like their parents did, just like all of their ancestors did, just like the families on TV do. Parenting is never presented to us as a choice. Our parents don't tell us how incredibly difficult it is to raise children. They want us to go through what they went through so we can see the hell we put them through. Another reason they can't tell us the truth is because it would hurt our feelings to hear our parents say that they wish they had known what they were getting into when they had kids. The Cleavers made it look so easy.

Elem, you aren't rambling. Your thoughts are very cohesive and interesting. You have the same complex I have of apologizing for everything we think or say because somewhere in our life we have been taught that our thoughts and words do not count. It's not true. Just be aware of that. It's something I'm studying. Read a book called "The Cinderella Complex" to learn more.

Blessings,

Read a book called "The Cinderella Complex" to learn more.

Thanks, , I'll be sure to look it up . I do apologise a lot.. It's just the way I am. Like you say, it's probably because I'm been told at sometime that what I say doesn't count.. Hopefully I'll get over it one day .

Thanks also for the responses, as I tried to suggest in my post (obviously none too clearly ), I do understand that given our 'higher intelligence' and more cognitive and advanced thought processes, we are able to control our bodies. As such, yes, we do have a choice when it comes to having children.

I'd never simply have children 'because it's what's done'. I believe that the decision to have children, or not, should be fully considered and everything should be weighed up before the decision is made. I can't stand the way so many young girls, in particular, simply have kids because it's 'what's done' or because their friends have.. So they feel left out. Kids are more than just some past-time, or a new 'fad'.. And should be recognised as such.

Still, given our decreasing birth rate (in England at least), it's obvious that more and more people are taking the option to either have kids much later in life, or not at all.. So I guess not everyone simply has kids without thinking first .

Elem

I actually agree with Elem. I think there is a biological and physical need to have children and procreate, which transcends all logical thought - but which can be subdued due to:

- trauma - such as assault, very bad experiences with kids.

- survival - the financial burden it can take to raise a child.

and of course:

- overpopulation - it has been discovered that most animals forced into a closed territory with limited resources will stop reproducing. This is also a biological trait which transcends logical thought and is something that happens on an instinctive level. When there are no resources, and few habitats, you stop reproducing because it is impractical.

I think some humans these days get a very distinct biological response to not have children, because of overpopulation. In countries which are overpopulated but also heavily Catholic (like Africa and other countries full of missionaries etc.) this biological need is overcome with the psychological conditioning that you must not use contraception etc.

I think we have biological responses, or instinctive responses to situations and then rationalise them. For example, it's easy to rationalise not wanting children by saying 'it's too expensive', or 'I don't think I'd make a good mother because I don't like children', or 'there are already so many kids out there!!!' but each of these logical statements comes from a biological trigger, or a physical trigger, which has been recognised as also occurring in animals with no higher cognitive functions.

We need to rationalise these biological instincts to not have children, because society does psychologically condition us to expect that having children is what we must do - because populating states for military reasons and reasons of defense is crucial to a nation's survival. Therefore, if our society was geared towards not having children, we would not have to find a way to rationalise ourselves at all, and it is the parents who keep having children who would have to rationalise their biological instinct.

Not everyone responds to the pressures of overpopulation, trauma or survival in the same way, but there is a growing proportion of humans who are having smaller families, or no children at all. In fact in Human Resources Management there's even a name for them: DINKS - Double Income, No Kids.

This will continue to be a growing trend, as issues of survival (finance) and overpopulation will continue to grow. It is not a rational and logical trend insofar as nature is rational and logical, to me it is simply a biological response to a situation where it is hard to survive financially already, where our food resources our limited, as is our habitat.

I used to know this girl whose mother worked as a nurse (I think she was a nurse) in a hospital and she often atended or received phonecalls from teenagers and such about birth control. One of them actually thought that if she jumped up and down, she wouldn't get preagnant...

We had a meeting in 12th grade about birthcontrol, STD's, etc, but from tons of classes in my school, only about 4 were chosen to attend this meeting, including mine.

About children... well I'm too young to think about it and until recently, I never wanted to have any, never saw it in my future, and it's still not something that I really want but sometimes I think I'd rather adopt than have a child of my own. I just don't see myself having a so called normal life, getting married, having kids, etc. It's something I'm not comfortable with but anyway, like I've said, I'm still young so I may change my mind in the future.

That is too bad that so few people chose to attend the class. I think 12th grade is very late to have this conversation. Aren't you 18 when you are in 12th grade? I already had a child by that age...
Anyway, I think it's great that you keep your options open. I think it will make your life easier if you can adjust your views on what your life should be as it goes on. When I was your age, I thought my life will be "normal" just as you described it. When that didn't work out, I was devastated. But now I'm coming to realize that my life is just fine even if it doesn't conform to some notion I had when I was a teen.

Actually (which is even worse), it wasn't the people that chose to attend it, they were sort of chosen. We had a similar class in 6th grade but it covered menstruation and such, nothing like what we really needed to know.

We had a meeting in 12th grade about birthcontrol, STD's, etc, but from tons of classes in my school, only about 4 were chosen to attend this meeting, including mine.

The public education system in Western Australia makes this mandatory, and we spend about 3-6 months on the topic. In fact I think we spend about 3 months on the topic in the first three years of highschool in a subject called 'Health.' Which also focused on nutrition / eating disorders etc. It was only 1 hour every Monday, but it was compulsory, and it was good learning.

This is a great conversation.

Ravenari, if you ever want to write ChildFree articles for my site, I would love to post them there. You have mentioned some great ideas here that I have never heard of (and I read a lot!) I would love to hear more of it if you ever get a chance to write some of it down. I would love to create a new CF site one day when I get the time. Until then, I would be happy to post any articles on my current site.

Yay! Another aussie on the site.
(I'm from N.S.W.)

being-singular-plural wrote:Well, I think that you first of all must choose your partner carefully--one who is sympathetic to your fears and seeks the same outcome. Also, get in tune with your inner rhythms. Ovulation only lasts 3 or 4 days, so during these days, abstain or just do oral. The rest of the time, be cautious, but don't overblow your fear of pregnancy--if anything will make it happen, it is your focus on it--via fear--that will!!! Try to detach from your fear for a moment and rationally ask yourself, "what is the worst thing that can happen to me if I get pregnant?" Perhaps you will realize that the fears are not as strong as your ego is making them out to be.

Blessings,

bsp

I know this original thread is old but I've just got to say, your advice is the best 'Ovulation only lasts 3 or 4 days, so during these days, abstain or just do oral'. I like your style lol.