Our beliefs and Christianity

Discussion for and about Christian witches and pagans. How do you merge your two belief systems? Please be kind to Christian witches. I have come to believe that it is a very valid belief system.
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Lillady
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Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Lillady »

My question is simply, can you live for both?

My oldest daughter who is 13 is a Christian. She has always been but in recent months has been told that Paganism, witchcraft and the like are evil. I believe in Christianity and have never condemned anyone for what they believe in. I know that in Christianity many of the beliefs and practices were derived from Paganism. However, my daughter thinks I am going to burn in hell if I continue. I have tried to explain I do not even believe in hell and she needs to research Paganism and that many of the beliefs and practices Christians have derived from it. She lives with her dad and stepmom (we have joint custody he has residential) they are very closed minded people and she is becoming like them. It is like no matter what I say or what proof I have I show her she ignores it and shuns it away. I am at a loss so just reaching out to you all for your thoughts on this. Thank you!
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Floyd Pinkerton
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Floyd Pinkerton »

My mom is exactly the same way. When I was in 8th grade she told me I was bringing Satan into the house for reasons I'm not yet comfortable discussing. Then in 10th grade when I was doing my senior project on world religion she told me I was being "too tolerant". I wasn't aware there even was such a thing.
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LiebeUndLicht
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by LiebeUndLicht »

I'm also 13, 14 in a week, I became a Wiccan when I was 12, and was previously a Christian.

My mum was a Pagan but I didn't know she was, until I told her I didn't feel so connected to Christianity and she gave me a couple of books about Paganism. At first I felt like I was betraying God but after a while I didn't feel that way any more. You say that your daughter is saying Witchcraft is evil, but have you tried educating her on your beliefs? A lot of Christians can be close-minded and tell everyone that isn't a Christian that they're going to Hell, without listening to what you have to say. TV shows and the like can depict Witches as being evil, and maybe without realising it, she is believing the storylines on TV to some extent. Tell her (only if you believe these things, of course) about trying to be good to everyone, Karma, the Three-Fold Law, and you don't practice Black Magick!, if you haven't done this already. Good luck, I hope all goes well for you, Blessed Be!
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Seraphin »

Hiya Lillady,

So sorry to hear that you're having trouble handling your daughter because of your beliefs. I feel you.

I think we can live for both if we don't look at Paganism and Christianity as religions but spiritual paths. I have friends who considered themselves as Spiritual Christian witch and their spirituality according to them isn't restricted to Mainstream Christianity and Neo-paganism. Their chosen spiritual path gave them all the choice to follow what they want to follow. They pick and choose what parts of the religions they want to keep, and they don't allow people to "browbeat" them into turning their backs on their chosen beliefs. They recognize that their path has certain ways they need to follow but at the same time they have the leeway to study and absorb other beliefs and practices they are comfortable with.

These friends of mine believe that what they're doing such as healing and divination were also what Jesus Christ and other personalities in the Bible did. The performance of miracles is like the performance of magick -- this is called "thaumaturgy" and it isn't limited to Jesus Christ, His disciples and saints. It can be done by anybody. For didn't Jesus himself say in John 14:12 that,"Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father."

What more proof do we need?

Sometimes though, we should recognize that we cannot force our Christian relatives to believe us. All we can do is allow them to see us live our pagan lifestyles without condemning and harming anyone. Don't harass them about it or poke fun of their desire to remain in their beliefs like most of them are doing to us. If they still insist on harassing you, telling that we are doomed to hell, then you might want to warn them their actions may end up harming your relationship.

Stand your ground with your daughter (or whoever is challenging you concerning your belief), but do everything you can to keep the peace. In the meantime, keep informing her and educating her about "Paganism" and how it's not harmful to us. :lol:
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Lillady
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Lillady »

LiebeUndLicht wrote:I'm also 13, 14 in a week, I became a Wiccan when I was 12, and was previously a Christian.

My mum was a Pagan but I didn't know she was, until I told her I didn't feel so connected to Christianity and she gave me a couple of books about Paganism. At first I felt like I was betraying God but after a while I didn't feel that way any more. You say that your daughter is saying Witchcraft is evil, but have you tried educating her on your beliefs? A lot of Christians can be close-minded and tell everyone that isn't a Christian that they're going to Hell, without listening to what you have to say. TV shows and the like can depict Witches as being evil, and maybe without realising it, she is believing the storylines on TV to some extent. Tell her (only if you believe these things, of course) about trying to be good to everyone, Karma, the Three-Fold Law, and you don't practice Black Magick!, if you haven't done this already. Good luck, I hope all goes well for you, Blessed Be!
Yes I have been since she has been told by both her stepmom & dad and saw in the bible that witchcraft was considered evil. I tried having another intellectual conversation with her this weekend without arguing and she just would not listen. I read out bible scriptures, asked her things like how do you think Jesus got his power to heal the sick, etc. She simply said he got it from God, so of course I said where do you think God got it from. Her response, He is God. Very aggraviating all in my head, i didnt lash out just took it in stride because I know at one point she was interested in Paganism till she read the things in the bible that condem magick.
These friends of mine believe that what they're doing such as healing and divination were also what Jesus Christ and other personalities in the Bible did. The performance of miracles is like the performance of magick -- this is called thaumaturgy and it is not limited to Jesus Christ, his disciples and saints. It can be done by anybody. For didn't Jesus himself say in John 14:12 that,"Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father."
Seraphin, thank you for that scripture as I will also relay that to her as well. She is having some teenage issues so our relationship is in a weird place at the moment. Once she decides to communicate with me under the right reasons I will try again. I am happy for her being Christian but her shunning those who are not is not cool with me. She even thinks those who have never heard of the Christian God are going to hell because they believe in other Gods and that is against one of the commandments (Thou shall not have any other Gods before me) and burning and she wouldnt listen to me that wasnt fair to think that way because there are a variety of beliefs and each person as a right to what they believe and follow.

Just a very emotional time for both of us and I am doing all I can to try to teach her that it is ok to co-exist. Dealing with a hypocrite who you gave birth to and love with every piece of you is not a cake walk, let me tell ya! :anxious: :anxious:
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Seraphin »

Lillady wrote:She even thinks those who have never heard of the Christian God are going to hell because they believe in other Gods and that is against one of the commandments (Thou shall not have any other Gods before me) and burning and she wouldnt listen to me that wasnt fair to think that way because there are a variety of beliefs and each person as a right to what they believe and follow.
One can't condemn us, pagans who are not Believers in the Judeo-Christian God just because we are walking in other path different from theirs.

Note that YHVH wasn't talking to "the whole population of the Earth" at that point He was telling the 10 commandments; but, rather, to the Hebrews who "crossed over" (which is what the term "hebrew" means) both physically and spiritually when they accepted YHVH as their God. The commandments of YHVH are not applicable to us, pagans!

They are, magickal pratitioners believers in YHVH, which brings them a lot closer to Him. Some of these are the Kabbalists. But they aren't called idol worshipers because idol worship is actually the perception that there are many forces with various powers over mankind and idol worshipers think that they can use these "powers" against God. Kabbalists aren't like that. They don't think that they can wrest the gun from God, and wield that power.

The Kabbalists who performed supernatural or magickal acts, were using them to bring home a message about their God just like us, pagans do to our Deities. They enjoined people to recognize their God, develop their character, be kind to others, be faithful, help people through healing, home cleansing and divinatory guidance etc. Understood in the larger context of God, their spirituality and morality, these unusual miracles were indeed Divine revelations just like the magick of some theistic pagans.

I know this is very hard for you. Just look at the positive thing. Why is she doing this? Most probably she's concerned about you (your "salvation"). Just be an understanding Mom as much as possible. And be very careful not to turn her against you. There's no sense in alienating her because of your respective beliefs.
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Lillady
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Lillady »

I understand completely Seraphin, the only thing is I do not think I am the one turning my own against me. I would see it if I had my tools all around the house and the house decorated and I practiced all the time in front of her but that is not what I am doing. My altar is open in my bedroom, she only goes in there when she has to for putting dirty clothes away or waking me up or to talk. I respect her beliefs so I do not openly practice when she is here except for at night when she is fast asleep and I pray and meditate. Her step mom on the other hand is a piece of work. None of this really began until Ashley asked her about witchcraft and Lisa showed her those scriptures in the bible that are against it.
One can't condemn us, pagans who are not Believers in the Judeo-Christian God just because we are walking in other path different from theirs.


I have tried to tell her many times but it is like trying to lead a horse to water, it is not happening. I pray daily for her understanding and love in this and for me to accept me and others like me and for those not like either for her to accept them for who they are. By the way what is YHVH??? Thank you for guiding me with this, I am so lost, empty and hurt to be condemned by my own child is one of the worst feelings ever, I wish it upon noone, including my worst enemy.
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random417
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by random417 »

YHVH is one of the names translated as "God" in the bible. Commonly accepted in magick circles that work with Him/ It as Gods name
So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay.
For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.
~AL 1:42-44
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Xiao Rong
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Xiao Rong »

Lillady, I'm really sorry about that -- I know this must be difficult for you, especially when you care about your daughter so much. I wonder how much of this is just a product of her being 13, though. I remember that a lot of my peers when I was 13 were pretty strident about their religious beliefs. Developmentally speaking, teenagers need to assert their own identity (usually somewhat aggressively); they have a strong "us/them" mentality, so they're simultaneously more vulnerable to peer pressure and the need to conform, but also distance themselves from anyone in the outgroup. So it may be that she's receiving pressure to conform to Christian beliefs and thinking, and because they have a very "either/or" mindset, it's hard for her to grasp how anyone else could believe something that's not Christianity (and of course, Christians often reinforce the either/or mindset by saying that anything that's not Christian is automatically evil or from Satan). As teenagers grow, they become more accepting of differences and can better understand that other people's choices are valid, even if those are not the choices they would make.

I know it's still hard to be on the receiving end of all that you're-going-to-hell talk, but I think you're doing absolutely what you should be doing -- gently educating her on what you believe but not pushing it in her face, standing fast, and being understanding of her religious beliefs. I think that in time, when she's got some more life experience under belt, she'll come around to realizing what a fabulous example you're setting, and that someone's specific beliefs don't matter so long as those beliefs lead them to be loving and kind people.
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Shub Niggurath
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Shub Niggurath »

What Xiao says is so true.
If we take the whole situation out of the religious context - it is all about feeling the need to belong somewhere and yet remain an "opinionated" individual. She's 13, with divorced parents. It must be tough for her to survive all this family pressure. Especially since it seems like the step-mom is trying to make her pick a side (either them or you) to feel accepted and supported. The fact that she's living with them doesn't help either because she doesn't have that much choice. So her reactions are not really that odd, she's just trying to deal with the pressure and remain Her-self without being held in contempt for her (still converting and stirring) beliefs and identity. I bet she doesn't really mean what she's telling you (that you're gonna go to hell and all that). She just wants to be perceived as a strong individual and be respected.
Most of the children feel betrayed by their parents when they divorce, especially when they're forced to choose a side. So, as painful as it is (and I'm really sorry for what you're going through), you need to remain strong and just let her be who she wants to be. When she grows up and she won't feel that much family pressure anymore she will probably change the attitude and understand you on a deeper level. All you can do is giving her as much support and understanding as you can.
It's never the child's fault, we can't blame the child for our mistakes (even if it's not your mistake but your ex-husband's). It's us, adults, who make them go through all this tough stuff. It's painful but that's how it is.

I hope everything's going to be okay. I'm really sorry for you and for your daughter as you both are probably going through emotional hell. Stay strong and forgiving - your daughter will thank you for that later.
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ness
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by ness »

Hi Lillady - This is really indeed an unfortunate situation.
There is definitely a lot of anti-pagan opinion amongst Christians. I used to know a Pagan dad who was also caught in similar situation where his daughter was bullied because her dad was Pagan and worshipped devil talks by her friends and their family. It is very unfortunate when parents don't teach their kids religious tolerance.

That said, 13 yrs is very tender and easily impressionable age. She hears these things from her step mom and sees many Christian families and friends around her... she is feeling out of place with your being a Pagan. She wants to fit in... most of us want to.

My advice - I would stop arguing, giving her proofs, showing her bible, questioning her belief. In fact, I would stop all religious discussions at this point. You said your relationship is already vulnerable. Religion is not something you want to bring into this mix. I think this disagreement and you desperately trying to prove her wrong or prove yourself right will only push both of you away and at this teenage years, she needs you. You are not going to get her on board with your religion anytime soon, so I wouldnt fight it now. You will have time for that.

I think you can calmly tell her that you will not discuss religion with her for a year and then it could be a topic you both can bring up after a year and discuss. In the meantime if she has any questions, she can write a note respectfully and leave it in a "question jar" and you would reply to it as a note. Losing any relationship for any religion is not worth it. That is my personal opinion. She will come around but until then, you need to work on other aspects of your relationship. Do movie night, go shopping together, take some mom-daughter class together... find other ways to bond with her.
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Lillady
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Re: Our beliefs and Christianity

Post by Lillady »

random417 wrote:YHVH is one of the names translated as "God" in the bible. Commonly accepted in magick circles that work with Him/ It as Gods name
Oh ok thank you. I never knew that. I appreciate the information :)

Xiao, I agree with you. Things are so much different now with teenagers than when I was one. I was going through a hard time too (had just lost my dad then I lost my mom 2-3 years later and got uprooted from FL to KY). At that time in my life is when I found Paganism, eventhough my parents had raised me Catholic (not strict Catholic though). So I can relate to the entire teenager needing to relate thing as far as Ashley goes. I am hoping I do not get a double dose as her sister Courtney (who is 8) gets older. Ash is still dealing with the divorce even after 7 years, she has been torn and it does not help I no long am distance close to her. I am just 100 miles away but its not like being in the same town (which I am still working on but we all know how life goes).

Levitating, I agree with you as well about the peer pressure. We all know how hard that can be and when you are in her shoes and just trying to figure out who you are you do get pressured to follow the Jones' per se. In this case Christianity, as most of her friends are and the town is one of those small based Christian towns. Of course nothing is wrong with that just makes it a little bit harder for me but I know as she gets older she will understand more and learn that it is ok to be different when it comes to religion that makes you who you are.

Ness, I have told her that about us not speaking about religion with one another and she has agreed. Of course I will still embrace her as I know she needs me more than anything right now especially in these crucial teenage years and she knows I am here for her as her mother always. Last thing I want is to push her away or prove her wrong I just want us. Religion can come later. With all she has been through I am letting sleeping dogs lie, I actually am moving towards therapy with her. Being a child with divorced parents who cannot get along is hard enough. I think if she has a 3rd party vent, per se it would help and then eventually her dad and I join in the therapy sessions so she knows we are both there for her. Thank you all for your input it is appreciate!
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