No such thing as Christian Wicca

Discussion for and about Christian witches and pagans. How do you merge your two belief systems? Please be kind to Christian witches. I have come to believe that it is a very valid belief system.
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lilmizsunshine727
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by lilmizsunshine727 »

North Star wrote:I have 'Catholic Witches' in my family, a couple actually. So yes, they do and can exist. My mom wears a cross and a pentacle. My aunt too (not 'the aunt' lol, but even she respects these ladies... they are her closest friends for over 50 years). Both these woman can perform some kick ass magick and have no problem praying to their 'God' or going to Christmas Eve mass, then going home and busting out the yule log or smudging their house. The one big thing I have learned from them which sets them apart so much from many Christians, they have no hate or judgement. They are both the most easy going, do as you will women with the kindest hearts and they kept some of the beauty from their Catholic roots, dismissed the hatred, and incorporated it with magick.

Who is anyone to judge or say it is not possible to be both? I grew up with both and as much as I am a one path kind of gal, I never thought less of them. Sometimes it seems those who judge so strongly are in fact insecure about their own choices...as is the general rule of thumb for such strong criticism, it just says more about you than them. Those secure in our paths seem to not be bothered by those who mix Christianity with Witchcraft. Who cares if someone else believes in a Christian God and Witchcraft? If a person finds peace and beauty in their path and does not hate or judge... that is beautiful.
Very well put (: They both sound like such interesting women!
Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none. -William Shakespeare

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by Vigdisdotter »

The thing is that Wicca and Witchcraft aren't the same thing. Witchcraft can indeed be spliced into other paths because it's a Craft, a set of practices and skills. It's like being a Christian Chef or a Christian Gardner.

Wicca on the other hands is a religion with its own tenants and gods and expected behaviour. It is a Orthopraxy. Much of what Wicca is, is in a direct opposition to Christian teachings and beliefs and vice versa. This is not to say you can't mix them. Of course you can, this is how new philosophies and religions are born. But the result of that mixing will be neither Christian, nor Wiccan. Rather it will be something new. Which is fine. More than fine to my mind. However I think it's grossly negligent to call it "Christian Wicca" as that sets up the claim of being both at the same time, which is not the case. Taking part of one and part of the other doesn't mean you're practicing he whole of either.

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by DPhoenix »

You also have to keep in mind that the English Bible was written during a time when witchcraft was taboo. Translation exceptions were taken and King James who commissioned the translating of the Bible did so during the Tyranny of the Roman Catholic Church.

To me, a Christian Wiccan is someone who doesn't confine God into the little box most Christians do. Every devout Christian practices magick every time they recite a prayer (incantation), light a prayer candle, make the sign of the cross. Of course they would never call it magick... but they are the same principles and procedures most wiccans use in one form or another.

At it's core, magick is the manifestation of will and belief... also the Christian definition of faith. The dividing factor is that the energy behind the magick for the Christian is God. For the wiccan it can be themselves, their tools or their deity.

Can there be Christian Witches? IMO most definitely...
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by One Witchy Mom »

I have to chime on here, and I admit I have had time yet to read through all the posts, however the ones I have have some misunderstandings. To truly understand the OT, you have know a about Hebrew.

Lets examine the ever popular verse
Exodus 22:18 KJV:
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in current common English usage for this verse. The word Kasaph is a root of m'khashepah which we also see over an over in OT. This word means Piosoner . And this could be of mind and body. Remember we are referring to ancient times, and one who use piosons or drugs to control and hurt would have been using Toxic Herbs.

The word used for "witch" actually meant poisoner. One who used toxic herbs to hurt or control people, today we would call them illicit drugs.


Other Passages and their Original Hebrew and Greek Wording:

Leviticus 19:26
KJV: Neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
NRSV: You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.
Hebrew: You shall not whisper enchantments or watch clouds ('Anan).

Further, I agree one cannot be Christian and Wicca, the religions in opposition of each other. However, one can be Christian and Craft. The Craft is not a religion, it is a science and art form. This art can be applied to any religion as way to connect with deity.
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by AncientSideEffects »

OK, I'm gonna squash this very quickly. Ive spent 11 yrs learning the difference among different religions. According to the old testament, any person who uses magick, good or evil, was doomed to an eternity in hell. As of the new testament, Jesus went and said, he gave himself for all sins and will love everyone equally. So, as per new testament, a Christian Wiccan is allowed. I will keep my opinion on religion separate from this as I know I'll piss people off.
@One Witchy Man, wicca is a craft. It is also a state of mind. One can be both without spells or incantations. Again, I'll keep my opinion out of this.

I understand what everyone is saying, however, but if Pagans, Wiccans, Heathens, Satanist's (I'm proving a point don't get mad I brought them into this,) and the like can put a higher being (entity or whatever term you prefer) as a superior, then who's to say you can't combine them? For example, everyone says a satanist is all about Baal, Beelzebub, whatever name you choose. However, they are actually a self empowering group. Teaching self reliability instead of waiting for a miracle and losing your house. God said he helps those who help themselves.
So yes, they can exist. Should anyone wanna argue the point, please I beg you, PM me and I'll teach you a few things. Actually, since I've seen posts like this, I'm gonna start a thread about it and teach everyone something about every religion I've studied. Then you can make your decisions.

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by One Witchy Mom »

Syncretism is the combining two ideas or system with out losing the meaning of either. Wicca is polytheistic, Christianity's main tenant is monotheistic. How can one be both poly and mono at the same time? Wicca is a religion that uses the Craft, not the Craft itself. And as I stated one can be Craft with no religion, or even a Satanist for the matter. And, yes Satanists do not worship the Christian idea of the "devil" basically in the root they simplest terms edify the self. The do what they will. Material over spirit. It works for them I suppose.

Show me the scripture which says all form of magic are evil? If this were true, then aromatherapists are doomed to hell...LoL Herbalist who heal are doomed. Please cite the OT where this is said. I am interested in knowing.

I am sure a Wiccan Christian can exist, however, they would be going against the basic idea on monotheism, and therefore no longer Christian, yes would be forgiven, but they would also be very confused trying to blend the two, since again, Wicca is polytheistic and Christian Monotheistic. A Christian can be Craft, a healer, one who practiced folk practices. In the Bible herbs, oils , and incense are used profusely. Do you think Moses went to hell for creating the Holy Anointing oil and believing it had divine powers of healing and restoration? This was prior to Christ.

As for the Craft being a state of mind, of course, you do not have to be a certain religion to be earth-based spirituality. Or any religion for that matter. It is a mind set of a being in-tune with nature, cycles, and seasons.

Did you study Greek as well, the original languages changes the meaning quite a bit in some places , with out changing the over story of Christ. I am interested in your ideas.
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by AncientSideEffects »

One Witchy Mom wrote:Syncretism is the combining two ideas or system with out loosing the meaning of either. Wicca is monotheistic, Christianity's main tenant is monotheistic. How can one be both poly and mono at the same time. Wicca is a religion that uses the Craft, not the Craft itself. And as I stated one can be Craft with no religion, or even a Satanist for the matter. And, yes Santanists do not worship the the Christian idea of of the "devil" basically in the root they simplest terms edify the self. The do what they will. Material over spirit. It works for them I suppose.

Show me the scripture which says all form of magic are evil? If this were true, then aromatherapist are doomed to hell...LoL Herbalist who heal are doomed. Please cite the OT where this is said. I am interested in knowing.

I am sure a Wiccan Christian can exist, however, they would be going against the basic idea on monotheism, and therefore no longer Christian, yes would be forgiven, but they would also be very confused trying to blend the two, since again, Wicca is polytheistic and Christian Monotheistic. A Christian can be Craft, a healer, one who practiced folk practices. In the Bible herbs, oils , and incense are used profusely. Do you think Moses went to hello for creating the Holy Anointing oil and believing it had divine powers of healing and restoration? This was prior to Christ.

As for the Craft being a state of mind, of course, you do not have to be a certain region to be earth-based spirituality. Or any religion for that matter. It is a mind set of a being in-tune with nature, cycles, and seasons.

Did you study and Greek as well, the original languages changes the meaning quite a bit in some places , with out changing the over story of Christ. I am interested in your ideas.
When I was Christian, I had a 1936 bible. One of the first multiple print, closest to original translation. When the translation wasn't interpreted but translated as written.
Funny how everyone says Christianity was monotheistic when in reality was poly. The holy trinity. Three beings. Three deities. The father. The son. The Holy spirit. Followed by, the mind, the body, and the soul. So six to be technical. That's far from monotheism. Every religion is magick. Every religion is craft. Look at it from the fence. Put each on a different side and sit in the middle. What do you see?

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by One Witchy Mom »

Whether the Trinity is polytheistic is up for debate. Some believe this other doctrines do not. They see it as the aspects of one God. Even if you has a 1936 bible, it was may still be a Kings James version, Hebrew words like most languages, have feelings attached to them. King James did not do the best job of translating when it come to the Hebrew language. They did the best they could to find word in English that somewhat resembled the Hebrew translation. Example Whale was replaced for 'big great fish" a word in Hebrew which had no English equal.

Did you find the OT scripture you referred in the prior post where you state OT says all magic is evil? I would like to know, because I sure do not find that at all. Especially when referencing the actual Hebrew. So, I would really like to know which OT verses these are so I can red them , perhaps I missed them.

I also do not see any Craft concepts other than prayer maybe in Jehovah Witness. The Craft , all forms are rich in symbolisms, the J.W do not allow any symbolism at all.
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by DPhoenix »

One Witchy Mom wrote:Show me the scripture which says all form of magic are evil? If this were true, then aromatherapist are doomed to hell...LoL Herbalist who heal are doomed. Please cite the OT where this is said. I am interested in knowing.
Rituals and sacrifices were performed ALL of the time by the Jewish priests on behalf of the common folk. (which led to the Jewish priests having a degree of spiritual & mental control over the people... much like the Roman Catholic Church especially in the Dark Ages)

Prayers, rituals, meditations, faith... all components of Wicca, all components of Christianity. When you think of it, answered prayers and miracles are magick. It's the conscious will and focused intent manifesting from the invisible to the visible.

Magick was used all the time, especially in the OT. Joshua and the people of Israel performed a ritual where they walked around the walls of Jerico a specific amount of times in a specific way to make the walls fall down. Moses parted the Red Sea and casts plagues against the Pharaoh. Jacob's son Joseph was able to interpret dreams and divine the future. Elijah (or Elisha I get them confused sometimes) created an endless supply of flour and oil so an old woman could feed her family during a famine and other miracles. Nahman was cured of leprosy by following the ritual he was told to do, dip into the Jordan River for so many days at a certain time of day. Thousands of passages refer to curses and blessings. Then you have the miracles of Jesus.
One Witchy Mom wrote:I am sure a Wiccan Christian can exist, however, they would be going against the basic idea on monotheism, and therefore no longer Christian, yes would be forgiven, but they would also be very confused trying to blend the two, since again, Wicca is polytheistic and Christian Monotheistic.
Depends how you look at it. As was mentioned by AncientSideEffects, the Trinity could be seen as polytheistic. Growing up Baptist I was taught that the three consisted of God (the Father), Jesus (the son) and the Holy Spirit (who I associate with the feminine due to it's aspects). So then the Holy Spirit could be seen as the Feminine counterpart of the Masculine God, with Jesus being their son. I know Catholics who use the Mother Mary as the divine feminine counterpart to the masculine God... so the duality/polarity is there.

So then the issue becomes with the Commandment of 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'. Interestingly enough, it doesn't say not to have other Gods 'beside me', and if God and the Holy Spirit are one (via the Trinity) then it isn't exactly like putting one before the other.


But these are things I have thought about for years. Perhaps they're just my own attempts at rationalizing and integrating what I believe and only make sense to me. Maybe there's others out there trying to resolve the same conflicts and this will make sense to them... but do with it what you will. <3
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by One Witchy Mom »

@DPheonix You made my point exactly about OT , they used magic all the time. Ancient was stating the OT says all magic is evil , and I was asking for the scripture that say that. Ritual is as old as mankind.

I agree the debate over the Trinity is a powerful one, not all Christian believe they are separate entities , but rather aspects of the One True God as they see it.

The Holy Spirit, does indeed have feminine quality, such as wisdom, comforter, ect. Even David writes that the Spirit gave him suckle at her breast to symbol Holy Spirt has a female nurturing nature. Martin Luther, referred to the Holy Spirit ad feminine. Mary , along with the 3 Mary's at cross is the triple goddess symbology of Catholic Church. However, Mary is not worshipped , she is revered for different roles.

It is something that takes years of a personal journey to come to terms with, and we never stop learning or growing. In the end we have do to what feels right for us, and let other do what feels right for them.
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by AncientSideEffects »

One Witchy Mom wrote:@DPheonix You made my point exactly about OT , they used magic all the time. Ancient was stating the OT says all magic is evil , and I was asking for the scripture that say that. Ritual is as old as mankind.

I agree the debate over the Trinity is a powerful one, not all Christian believe they are separate entities , but rather aspects of the One True God as they see it.

The Holy Spirit, does indeed have feminine quality, such as wisdom, comforter, ect. Even David writes that the Spirit gave him suckle at her breast to symbol Holy Spirt has a female nurturing nature. Martin Luther, referred to the Holy Spirit ad feminine. Mary , along with the 3 Mary's at cross is the triple goddess symbology of Catholic Church. However, Mary is not worshipped , she is revered for different roles.

It is something that takes years of a personal journey to come to terms with, and we never stop learning or growing. In the end we have do to what feels right for us, and let other do what feels right for them.
If I'm not mistaken, its been years since I've seen the Bible. It was the letters to or from Solomon. Solomon summoned demons and cast them into statues to do his bidding, so I do believe its there. Not sure where exactly. Looking for it. I'll try to post by the end of today I have work in 6 hours.
Edit: its The Testament of Solomon. Looking for the verse.

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by AncientSideEffects »

Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26-26; 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Isaiah 8:19 and Malachai 3:5.
Specifically Deuteronomy, "There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer" can't believe I still remembered where to find all that. May not be direct translation, as no language has a direct translation for all words. I.E. Spanish has no word for doorknob. The Spanish direct would be knob of the door. So knowing the translation it was adjusted for ease of the readers.
So I provided an example to use the of magick, and the proof against it. Go figure.

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by AncientSideEffects »

I know, separate post. It's an aside to what One Witchy Man said. The difference between J.W. and Christianity and the cross stops at they both believe in it. J.W. do not idolize the cross, that's seen as saying J.C. is still on it. Where modern Christianity uses it to affirm faith and prayers. The prayer beads of every Catholic, a cross hangs from it. Idolization is the sole difference.
Aside from that, J.W. do jot believe in holidays, they were seen as filthy, tainted by Pagans. Christmas wasn't about gifts, it was celebrating J.C.'s birth. Easter Sunday, the third day after his death, his resurrection, was also the same three days it took for the sun to stop moving and rise again( I forget where that's at.) Everything is coincidental in Christianity, don't you think? To many things are side by side. The only difference is the conception, birth, death, and resurrection. Its the same as Horus, the main Egyptian God. Which just so happened to be 20,000 years before him.
I made a thread about the magicks of religion. Its all the same. Incantation by way of prayer, spells affirmed by either a symbol, a deity, or a sacrifice. Potions as a poultice, medicine, or curse. Hexes, dolls for voodoo, and etc. The list is endless. Magick is used in all religions. Its forbidden in few. That's the way it goes. They want you to do one thing but say something else. It's the case of "do as I say, not as I do."

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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by One Witchy Mom »

@Aanceint Are you referring o the Keys of Solomon?

Lets discuss some of the misrepresentations in the Bible. due to language.


'Anan is usually translated in the KJV as "observer of times" and the NRSV usually renders it as "soothsayer". There is no rational reason why the NRSV departs from this practice as it does in Leviticus 19:26. Literally the term means one who watches clouds. From the context of its usage it would appear it means one who makes predictions by observing the clouds. A more reasonable translation would be "meteorologist"! Shall we condemn the weather man?


What we are dealing with here is a prohibition of predicting the future. Of course any reflection at all will realize that predicting the future is something that is also commended in the Hebrew Scriptures! So the issue must be one of how one predicts the future. The root meaning of 'Anan would suggest that predicting the future based on observation of nature is off limits. Of course that causes us a problem today, for we depend on predictions of the future based on observation of nature.



The Hebrew term Qesem is universally translated as "divination" except for the one time in the KJV. On first glance "divination" seems the same thing as predicting the future. However, it isn't quite. Divination is less about predicting the future than it is about explaining the present and the ramifications the present, if unchanged, will have on the future. Another difference is that 'Anan is based on observation of nature, while Qesem happens through intuition, often using symbolic tools to facilitate that intuitive work. Again, divination is practiced in many times in the Scriptures where it is commended. The Ummin and the Thrummin.


Another term we need to look at is the word 'Ob. Although I have never seen 'Ob translated as "Witch", the most famous 'Ob in the Bible is almost always called "The Witch of Endor." So it is pertinent for us to discuss what the term means.


The KJV would translate is as "one who hath a familiar spirit", while the NRSV prefers "medium". I think "medium" is better for an 'Ob didn't seem to be a person who conversed with one spirit, as say the fictional Mayfair Witches in Anne Rice's books The Witching Hour conversed with the spirit Lasher. Rather an 'Ob was a person who seemed to be able to call up spirits of the dead. Medium is, in my opinion, the best modern term, but it too may be lacking. For when we think of a medium we think of someone who "channels" the spirit of the departed, while the story of the 'Ob of Endor has the dead spirit manifesting to the inquirer rather than being channeled through the 'Ob, but perhaps that story was an unusual case and the 'Ob normally operated in a similar way as modern mediums, like in the film Ghost. Again, however, I do not feel it is communication with spirit that is being warned of but rather communicating with "evil" spirits, this is why we must develop discernment.


So there is no justification in applying the passage about the 'Ob to Witchcraft. Just like what we found out about 'Anan and Qesem, this term is completely mistranslated whenever anyone associates it with Witchcraft.

Other Terms:

yid'oni: acting as a medium
sho'el 'ov: communicating with the dead
qosem q'samim: predicting the future using lots
m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature.
m'nachesh snake charming
chover chavar: using knot-tying to perform magic.
m'khaseph: evil sorcery
doresh 'el hametim: channeling



The most likely meanings do not appear in any of the English Bible translations currently checked:

A poisoner: a murderer who uses toxic potions to kill humans by stealth.
a person who goes around spreading dissension - poisoning people's minds
A person relying on evil supernatural forces to achieve power and hurt others



Clearly this does NOT describe the majority involved in The Craft, and it would seem that it is not Magic so much that is the problem as what source you are turning to to achieve that magic. Also it is dually noted that Gentiles were not given the Laws of the OT.

Miraculous Healings, Casting out of Demons, is what Jesus sent the Apostles out to do, why is it that the Born Again feel they have the corner market on these gifts? And it is for NO man to judge the Heart of another.



What the Bible says...
One my biggest peeves is the lack of understanding on Bible Translations and version. The Hebrew language as well as Greek and Aramaic just do not translate very well. Two courses of action where taken when translating into English as well as other languages. When a word raised that had no comparable English word, or a word that the translators simple could not quite define they either translated in literally or translated into the closet word possible.

Wonderful example is the Story of Jonah and "whale" . Some places we see whale other big fish, more accurately may have been 'great sea creature'. Errors such as this are numerous through the KJV. I am not negating that the basic message is still there, however, most legalities can be directly linked to inaccurate translations due to mere ignorance and the inability to wholly translate ancient languages into modern terms. With this being said let us examine some common tactics use by many , who wish to use the Bible as a loaded weapon rather than a book of history , mysticism, stories to live by and morals.

First it is important to realize to Bible in Hebrew refers more accurately as....

The term "witchcraft" in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) refers to (mostly) women who used spoken curses to injure other people or destroy their property.

The term, "witchcraft" in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) refers to murderers who use poisons to kill people.




A careful analysis of the original passages in the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, shows that they condemn individuals who:

Use spoken curses to harm others.
Use poison to harm others.
The Hebrew Scriptures frequently condemn the Pagan religions practiced by the tribes which surrounded the ancient Israelites. Other passages condemn various Pagan beliefs and practices that Jews picked up from their neighbors.

It is important to note as well that the OT, was given to the Israelites. God chose the descendant as Abraham for a purpose, he was testing and weeding during the Books of Moses. OT clearly states the laws were given to the Israelites, it was to strengthen them for a plan.

By translating the original Hebrew and Greek text as "Witch" and "Witchcraft", translators have selected a very confusing word. In the case of the King James Version, this seems to have been done deliberately. King James had a deathly fear of "Witches" . The justification for choosing such a misleading word in a some recent translations, is less clear. The translators must be aware of the exact meaning of the original Hebrew word; yet they selected an English word which was clearly ambiguous and which would make large numbers of people vulnerable to religious hatred.

Scripture analysis

By translating the original Hebrew and Greek text as "Witch" and "Witchcraft", translators have selected a very confusing word. In the case of the King James Version, this seems to have been done deliberately. King James had a deathly fear of "Witches" . The justification for choosing such a misleading word in a some recent translations, is less clear. The translators must be aware of the exact meaning of the original Hebrew word; yet they selected an English word which was clearly ambiguous and which would make large numbers of people vulnerable to religious hatred.
Lets examine the ever popular verse
Exodus 22:18 KJV:
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in current common English usage for this verse. The word Kasaph is a root of m'khashepah which we also see over an over in OT. This word means Poisoner . And this could be of mind and body. Remember we are referring ancient times, and one who use poisons or drugs to control and hurt would have been using Toxic Herbs.


Other Passages and their Original Hebrew and Greek Wording:

Leviticus 19:26
KJV: Neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
NRSV: You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.
Hebrew: You shall not whisper enchantments or watch clouds ('Anan).


Deuteronomy 18:10-11
KJV: There shall not be found among you anyone who maketh his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or who useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter of familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
NRSV: No one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through the fire, or who practices divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or one who cast spells, or who consults ghosts or spirits, or who seeks oracles from the dead.
Hebrew: There shouldn't be anyone among you who passes a son or daughter through fire, does divination, is a cloud watcher, a whisperer of enchantments, a Kashaph, a joiner of charms, a medium, a knowing one, or a speaker to the dead.

1 Samuel 15:23
KJV: For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
NRSV: For rebellion is no less a sin than divination, and stubbornness is like iniquity and idolatry.
Hebrew: For rebellion is the same as the sin of divination (Qesem) and giving in to stubbornness is the same as iniquity and idolatry.

1 Samuel 28:7
KJV: Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman who hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman who hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
NRSV: Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, so that I may go to her and inquire of her." His servants said, "There is a medium at Endor."
Hebrew: Then Saul said to his servants, "Go look for a woman who's a medium ('Ob), so I can visit her and question her." His servants said, "There's a medium ('Ob) at Endor."

2 Kings 9:22
KJV: And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the woredoms of thy mother, Jezebel, and her witchcrafts are so many?
NRSV: When Joram saw Jehu, he said, "Is it peace, Jehu?" He answered, "What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?"
Hebrew : When Joram saw Jehu, he said, "Jehu! Is it Peace?" Jehu answered, "What peace? Not as long as your mother Jezebel's many prostitutions and Keshaphim continue!"

2 Chronicles 33:6
KJV: And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom; also he observed times and used enchantments and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards; he wrought much evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.
NRSV: He made his son pass through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, practiced soothsaying and augury and sorcery, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Hebrew: Manasseh passed his son through fire in Ben-Hinnom Valley and practiced cloud watching and whispering of enchantments; he was a Kashaph working with mediums and knowing ones. He did a lot of evil from Yahweh's point of view, which made Yahweh angry.

Micah 5:12
KJV: And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers.
NRSV: And I will cut off sorceries from your hand, and you shall have no more soothsayers;
Hebrew: And I will cut off Keshaphim from your hand, and you shall have no more cloud watchers;

Nahum 3:4
KJV: Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well-favored harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations throught her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts..
NRSV: Because of the countless debaucheries of the prostitute, gracefully alluring, mistress of sorceries, who enslaves nations through her debaucheries, and peoples through her sorceries.
Hebrew : Because of the countless sexual escapades of this prostitute, this extremely desirable mistress of Keshaphim who captured nations through her sexual escapades and peoples through her Keshaphim.

Galatians 5:19-21
KJV: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and the like; of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
NRSV: Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkneness, carousing, and things like these,. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Greek: Now the energies of the flesh are obvious: promiscuity, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, occultist drug use(Pharmakeia), enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these,. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The archetype of Slain and risen god as you describe it a common across cultures and ages. Not only Horus, but Mirtha, Odin, and so on. J.W do not celebrate anything besides wedding anniversaries , due to the Pagan nature of all Xian holidays. as they see it. They do not have joyful music, from my experiences it is a religion of guilt purely. That is just how I see it. To me it seems they do not celebrate their God but suffer it and want everyone else to as well. Actually Pentecost do recognize a crucifix, but a cross. J.W do not have any symbols or idols, or images at all. Then we have Catholics and Orthodox, who are wrought with symbolism. There is joke in the Pagan community, if you ever have to Xian go Catholic , it is the most Pagan of Xian religions. Makes me laugh, because it is so true.

As far as magic being seen in all religion aside from a handful, I would agree, I think of spells as simply prayers with props. Ever been to a Solemn Mass, it is full of magic, they just do not call it that. Nor, do the Pentecostal call it magic when the perform the Wall of Jericho, nor the Angelicans when they set up a Madonna and pin requests to her dress. It is a matter of what it means to the people who practice it. So, if you were to even suggest to a Pentecost , that they perform magic, they would be super offended.
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Starwitch
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Re: No such thing as Christian Wicca

Post by Starwitch »

I have a very simple outlook on Christian Wicca or Christian "Craft", as you call it. A Wiccan can worship any god or goddess they choose. Many simply worship "The Goddess". Others worship many deities. Some prefer to worship Jesus Christ, which makes them a Christian Wiccan or Christian Witch. Sure, it doesn't follow Christian beliefs, but it's still very easily doable, and many folks do it this way. They cast their spells while praying to Jesus, Mary, God, or the Holy Spirit for assistance. If they consider themselves Wiccan due to other beliefs they hold, then they would be a Christian Wiccan - a Wiccan who prays to the Christian God. Despite what other Wiccans and Christians may want them to do, they have chosen to do something different.

Many people from indigenous cultures have been converted to Christianity while also retaining many of their magical beliefs. So that's another way a person can become a Christian witch, though I wouldn't refer to them as "Wiccan" in those cases.

A Bible-thumper may never understand this, but it's actually pretty simple. You can believe and practice how you choose, regardless of what other Christians and witches/Wiccans may think about it.

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