How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Discussion for and about Christian witches and pagans. How do you merge your two belief systems? Please be kind to Christian witches. I have come to believe that it is a very valid belief system.
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Shekinah
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Shekinah »

No wars have ever been waged in the name of Witchcraft. Many wars continue to be waged in the name of Religion. The two are not compatible. Witchcraft is spiritual in that we are sensitive to Spirit or consciousness resident throughout the universe, call it Higgs Field, Spirit, Quantum entanglement or whatever it is the progenitor of life and merits our respect and adoration. Religion on the other hand doesn't even believe in global warming or that the human footprint is a problem. No problem Jesus will save us. The origins of most religions are concocted myth perpetrated to rule the masses with fear and intimidation and perpetuate stupidity (enlightened people are difficult to control). These heathens kill baby trees to celebrate their Lord each Yule. May they be a pine tree in their next life. :evilwitch:
Truth and Reality are highly guarded secrets. Nothing is as it appears. "The ONENESS sleeps in the stone, breathes in the plant, dreams in the animal and awakens in man" (Indian proverb)

Danmagnamius
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Danmagnamius »

This is not about Christianity but any Religion that is against Witchcraft, surely if God created man he created mans spiritual abilities!


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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by planewalker »

It seems to me that religion should be seen as the artificial construct that it is. I've yet to see the philosophy that religions are based on as evil. The religions that PEOPLE make from those philosophies are a completely different story. The people who came up with the philosophy would, I believe, say "What the HE!! have you done to my beautiful way of living?". I also believe that Christmas trees came from the "upper crust" in the UK wanting to be like Albert and Victoria. In the long run it was that the royals weren't going to go outside {as per the North German custom that it came from} and get their tootsie's cold.

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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Darkest Auldearn wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote:That's not 'source' material, that is a mistake early Wiccans did and that modern Wiccans do not make. Academia, with the original definition of witchcraft as "harmful magical practices" supports that witches were beyond any religion. Gardner, Valiente, etc are not the end all be all of witchcraft and witches, nor are they "authorities" just because they popularized it. They're authorities on Wicca and Wiccan witchcraft, but not witchcraft itself since the term is insanely broad.
It is source material, I'm afraid. Gerald Gardner didn't popularize modern Witchcraft; he was the first person to codify it into an applicable religion, similar to how Anton Szandor LaVey codified Satanism almost a decade after Gardner.

There is no basis in evidence that there was any codified religion dedicated to Witchcraft prior to High Magic's Aid, and then officially, Witchcraft Today and The Meaning of Witchcraft. When people argue the opposite, they usually get mired in things like early Heathan/Pagan concepts, "cunning folk" and sympathetic magic practices. None of these were "religions" per se, and were little more than localised sets of superstitions that were applied to individual communities that had need of magical (for want of a better term) services.

Secondly, and more importantly, you're dismissing academic study because... Why? Academics don't simply identify Witchcraft as what you presumably term "maleficia", and an argument to the contrary only highlights that you're hopelessly out of touch with the breadth of modern research.

If you want to argue this point, I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist on evidence.
Wicca is a modern religion, witchcraft exists outside of Wicca. They are authorities on their specific brand of witchcraft and Wicca as a religion. They are NOT authorities on witchcraft as a whole. If they were, brujeria would have never developed independently without them even knowing. Witchcraft does not belong to one culture. Not once did I say that witchcraft as a religion existed prior to then, what I said was that it was "beyond" religion because magic usage dates back to at least prehistoric times when people tried to use such practices to control domestication, the hunt, and nature. This is mentioned in my anthropology textbook. (Citation below) That means "witchcraft" in the dated sense, did as well.

Per academia ancient witchcraft is as generally defined as harmful magic. This is what I am saying. Witches, sometimes those who were born that way, were thought to harm communities. This still happens in many parts of the world, where people are scape goated, and you will see WITCH used in the original way in cultures such as Mexico, African cultures, and India, and not the broad Neopagan definition that people such as Gardner said.

Need some citations?

Maqlu texts of ancient Akkadia, in which a lengthy anti-witchcraft ritual is performed and includes burning the witch, a concept outside of Abrahamic religion. Daayan or Daayani in India, which does not have a positive image.

Here's some book citations:

Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion: An Anthropological study of the Supernatural (4th edition) by Lehmann and Meyers. Page 200 and probably 409-410. This book goes mostly in depth into how most cultures, especially ancient, viewed witches. Phillips Stevens, Jr. talks about how witchcraft was perceived as social problem that is disruptive to to society compared to modern urban developments, where it is not.

An Illustrated Dictionary of Gods, Demons, and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia by Black and Green (Under:Witchcraft)

Kottack's Anthropology: Appreciating Human Diversity show cases the old school usage of the word on 501-502 under "social control". On 503 he goes on about shamans.

Anton LaVey also mentioned it. I think it was in the Satanic Witch.


Also, comparing Satanism to witchcraft is a bad example in my opinion. Satanism is not really a phenomena outside of Abrahamic influenced cultures, witchcraft is.
"Magick/Witchcraft are tools, and that's it".

Tools to do what, exactly?
To change a circumstance.
Hermeticism isn't Christianity, either. An assertion to the contrary is illogical gibberish.
Never said it was. Said that magic/Christianity has been mixing for sometime.
Trying to argue that Christianity and Witchcraft are compatible, by adding in Jewish mysticism, is about as poor an argument as you could possibly make. I know very well what Qabbalah and Rosicrucianism is, and I have personal experience with a Brujo. At this point, you're just throwing out obscure religious notions and hoping that I don't know anything about them. This passage of yours isn't even making a point... It's just random sentences.

I'm sorry, but every response you've posted so far smacks of millennial thinking; facts are secondary to feelings.

That's just not how information works, I'm afraid.
Nope. I listed instances of Christian magick which takes inspiration from Kabbalah, you say it's wrong because you have facts to the contrary and then go on about how it's about feelings and not facts. Yet you have not cited any facts, other than your opinions? But I am emotional?

Also, I cited my sources down to specific academic books and pages. You have yet to do so. Rather, you resort to ad hominem, straw man, which may be you just misunderstanding me, and assumptions about my character. Try again.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Darkest Auldearn
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Darkest Auldearn »

Having been warned by an administrator, I'll be taking no further part in this discussion; I simply can't guarantee that I won't use language considered "abusive", so it's best to cease and desist.

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Shekinah
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Shekinah »

Danmagnamius wrote:This is not about Christianity but any Religion that is against Witchcraft, surely if God created man he created mans spiritual abilities!
Assuming a God created man are ye?
Truth and Reality are highly guarded secrets. Nothing is as it appears. "The ONENESS sleeps in the stone, breathes in the plant, dreams in the animal and awakens in man" (Indian proverb)

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

^ That is a good point, especially if one believes that they are "born witches". Why would God allow such if it dams him?
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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RosieMoonflower
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by RosieMoonflower »

I can't go around and around on history and ethics of all the branches of witchcraft and Christianity, but Appalachian Granny magick has always been Christian based. It's a hodgepodge of paganism, Christianity, and the beliefs of the Native Americans and it has existed and lasted since the area was first settled. Call it correct, call it incorrect, it exists. And, all this comes down to is people who think that if you identify as "Christian" in any capacity you must take the Bible and each word in it literally. It also asserts that if you identify this way you believe that there is no human error in the Bible and the story of preserved exactly and Jesus (and God) intended. So therefore If you use witchcraft too, then you're being hypocritical and I think this is really the probably people have with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, people who don't understand that many of us who identify as Christian Witches don't believe that every word of the Bible is to be believed and followed and would back off of this argument completely if we would just choose different terms. How about Pagan Jesus supporter?

Rosie

Danmagnamius
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Danmagnamius »

Lady_Lilith wrote:^ That is a good point, especially if one believes that they are "born witches". Why would God allow such if it dams him?
you are right. I do not practice witch craft though I was born a witch, and I believe I am a good person so why should I be damned!

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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by planewalker »

As we have the Bible in 21st century USA, it is mistranslated. It went Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek to Latin to French to English. Do you really think it is the word of God after that many translations? It's not. I don't think you'll be able to find one that has the commandment as "thou shall not murder.". That is how it is written in the Torah, which is used as the first 5 books in the old Testament. Since at least one is badly flawed in it's translation, should we call them - The 10 Suggestions?

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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

RosieMoonflower wrote:I can't go around and around on history and ethics of all the branches of witchcraft and Christianity, but Appalachian Granny magick has always been Christian based. It's a hodgepodge of paganism, Christianity, and the beliefs of the Native Americans and it has existed and lasted since the area was first settled. Call it correct, call it incorrect, it exists. And, all this comes down to is people who think that if you identify as "Christian" in any capacity you must take the Bible and each word in it literally. It also asserts that if you identify this way you believe that there is no human error in the Bible and the story of preserved exactly and Jesus (and God) intended. So therefore If you use witchcraft too, then you're being hypocritical and I think this is really the probably people have with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, people who don't understand that many of us who identify as Christian Witches don't believe that every word of the Bible is to be believed and followed and would back off of this argument completely if we would just choose different terms. How about Pagan Jesus supporter?

Rosie

Some of my Christian and non-Christian friends who are magically inclined, pointed out Granny magick and also mentioned that "Christian witchcraft" or even regular magick usage was a lot more normal centuries back because almost everyone was Christian. So, it was not as abnormal as we perceive it now.

I read somewhere that biblical literalism is a new thing. Most people upheld that the bible was largely metaphorical in the past. I agree with planewalker about the translation issues, too.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

Danmagnamius
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Danmagnamius »

Shekinah wrote:
Danmagnamius wrote:This is not about Christianity but any Religion that is against Witchcraft, surely if God created man he created mans spiritual abilities!
Assuming a God created man are ye?
I'll give you my perspective, I know from my own experiences that there is something more than are physical existence, and sometimes U call that spirituality God!

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Mr Crowley
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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by Mr Crowley »

Magic (the term I'm using for Witchcraft in your personal nomenclature) does need a religious construct to house it; it cannot be practiced non-religiously.
If magic is hereditary, why does it need a religious shrine?
Quote from Darkest Aulderan

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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by SpiritTalker »

Not all Christians are fundamentalists.

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Re: How can someone be a Christian Witch?

Post by NeverMoonAWerewolf »

Not all practitioners of magic are religious.

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