What is a Pagan?

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Exilus
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Post by Exilus »

Wrong yes they do, infact they have a legend, KNown as lilith. Do you know who she was?

Adams first wife, banished from the garden of eden because she wanted to break all amazon on adam, and refused to accept his domination of her as the stronger of them. The legend goes further to say that when she was banished to the land of Nod, she had sex with the devil and because a sucumbus, who would later seduce cain while he was banished to the land of nod for killing his brother.

The legend untill the 1800 was so prominent that the jewish went as far as blaming failed crops, or the death of a male child on lilith.

In the legend the jewish talk of her sleeping with satan, they are the creators of the first book of the bible in which satan became satan, you have that confussed with their not beleiving in christ as the son of god I do beleive.

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Peregrine
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Post by Peregrine »

That was an excellent commentary on the many faces of Paganism. I was just wondering where Pantheism fits into this picture. There are times in my life where I wander in and out of the concept, more specifically of "Scientific Pantheim" myself but from what I understand, Pantheism would definitely fit well with Paganism. Panentheism would fit in this category as well.

As for the spinoff debate on Satanism, I used to haunt the boards over at BeliefNet for a long time a few years ago. The Satanists over there do not believe in Satan, except as an Archaetype. They do not worship any sort of devil, and I studied some sites on Satanism in order to gain a better understanding. I was afraid at the time, but it turned out not to be so bad. One of their top ten cardinal sins (yes, the also have a list of sins that I consider almost an equivalent of the Bible's Ten Commandments) is that of instigating harm against an innocent. There goes the hysteria of animal and baby sacrifices. One kid, in fact, went to one of their boards saying how disappointed he was that he sacrificed a rabbit (or some other small animal) in a magick ritual and nothing worked, and the Satanists over there jumped his case like hellfire (no pun intended) for harming an innocent animal.

As was already said, Satanists as far as I have researched are basically hedonistic, encouraging people to go ahead and indulge but to also be wary, for Stupidity is another one of their cardinal sins. In other words, if you are stupid enough to cause harm to someone who was not bothering you and you get serious repercussions for it, or to go out and get so drunk that you pass out and nearly drown in your own vomit, then they have a complete lack of empathy for you, a very hard-eyed attitude that you were asking for it for being that stupid. They lack the forgiveness doctrine that Christianity teaches and in fact also teach revenge. One of them blatantly said, "For example, if you slap me, I'll turn right around and slap you back."

Furthermore, the "blood sacrifice" they speak of at times is also metaphorical in nature and merely means very hard work. For in Satanism, laziness is another cardinal sin. They speak of the "blood, sweat, and tears" that it takes to achieve your goals. Also there were some factions that had different personalities to satan much like the "Father/Son/Holy Spirit" trinity of the GodHead that had Satan with the symbol of fire as the punisher of wrongdoers, Lucifer with the symbol of wind and a crafty temptor (like in the book of Job and actually works for Jehovah but is the proverbial "Slugworth" that actually works for Willie Wonka), and so forth.

Last, but not least, they warn against solipsisms for people who are unworthy. They have no outreach program. If someone wants to learn, they'll pay attention. Otherwise, do not waste precious time on somebody who just wants to argue. His/her mind is already made up so go and do something to achieve your own goals and let him/her wallow in his/her own stupidity. Of course, I may be acting like a bad satanist for my solipsism, but you all seem much more open-minded and inform. Also I have never been a satanist so I may be off the hook for that one. green_laugh
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)

Witch1693
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Post by Witch1693 »

That is something called a MIDRASH. I go to hebrew school i know. A midrash is story to teach a lesson, you make it like that is a true story, that is a fake legend and is not meant to be actually taken seriously i . I Believe. I will get back to you about this on thursday(i go to hebrew school on wednesday.)

Exilus
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Post by Exilus »

Decides that that tag fits the whole of the bible.

Here let me save you some time. This is what is on storeage in the library of religious history, Rome. Have fun.

In Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theology, the supreme spirit of evil (Beelzebub, Lucifer, Iblis), or an evil spirit generally.

The Devil, or Satan, is mentioned only in the more recently written books of the Old Testament, but the later Jewish doctrine is that found in the New Testament. The concept of the Devil passed into the early Christian church from Judaism, and theology until at least the time of St Anselm represented the Atonement as primarily the deliverance, through Jesus's death, of humankind from the bondage of the Devil. Jesus recognized as a reality the kingdom of evil, of which Satan or Beelzebub was the prince. In the Middle Ages, the Devil in popular superstition assumed the attributes of the horned fertility gods of paganism, and was regarded as the god of witches. The belief in a personal devil was strong during the Reformation, and the movement's leader Luther regarded himself as the object of a personal Satanic persecution. With the development of liberal Protestantism in the 19th century came a strong tendency to deny the existence of a positive spirit of evil, and to explain the Devil as merely a personification.

However, the traditional conception was never abandoned by the Roman Catholic Church, and theologians such as C S Lewis have maintained the existence of a power of evil.

In Muslim theology, Iblis is one of the jinn (beings created by Allah from fire), who refused to prostrate himself before Adam, and who tempted Adam and his wife Hawwa (Eve) to disobey Allah, an act that led to their expulsion from Paradise. He continues to try to lead people astray, but at the Last Judgement he and his hosts will be consigned to hell.


From the Jewish encyclopedia on the word devil.

Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).


The jewish may not now claim to beleive in the devil, Just as the roman catholic claim to never have performed exorsisms, but it does not change the fact that they did and do have storys that teach of a devil, therfore your statement to them not beleiving in one is wrong, I am sorry but that is life. Oh and further more the religion is based on the old testament of the bible to say they don't beleive in the devil is to say that they don't beleive in the bible.

Witch1693
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Post by Witch1693 »

Oh i guess i was wrong. sorry bout that. It is no longer taught of a devil or hell. that is an old jewish philosofy not most modern jewish ppl. sorry. i was wrong. ohwell.

Exilus
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Post by Exilus »

Ghost from what I can tell, I had a roommate who was a tony lav(cant spell the damn name.) Satanist and very devout one while I was in the army. (Was funny really our NCOs had a feild day in our barracks rooms every inspection.) But the religion that they follow is more akin to the teachings of the noris lucifer the son god, he even went as far as having a book of history that told an interestiong tale of how the name lucifer even joined the ranks of names of satan during the crusades and I tend to believe that story based on our religions own personal history against the christians.



Its not a problem witch, Thats what people are here for to learn. The truth is the bastion that opens our eyes.

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Peregrine
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Post by Peregrine »

Exilus, you actually knew a real satanist? That is incredible. Tony Lav, is that Anton LaVey? Was this person a LaVeyan Satanist? I've read some of his comments. Seems like a scary person to cheese off. Here's a comment I found on the website for the Church of Satan:
My worst enemies are those who presume me to be harmless. They cannot imagine how much I resent and disdain them, or just how great a threat they would face if I could get at them. Everything in their behavior speaks of insult and presumptuousness, and for now it is all I can do to make constructive use of my anger toward them. At this time, I just make a list of them and keep a watch on. Some day, with the help of time, space, and circumstance, I will be able to humiliate them properly - not in a manner they would enjoy, but in a style calculated to make them wish that they had never been born.

Anton Szandor LaVey
Also is Lucifer's name somehow associated with the Morning Star? I vaguely recall it being so but cannot remember why. Oh, yes, I do recall the mythologies of Lilith as first woman before Eve.

Don't ask why I keep looking at them. I truly do not know. I like Scientific Pantheism myself, along with some of the wise teachings of Taoism, Buddhism, the Kabballah, and Deism. Deism, I know, sort of clashes with the others but they are a tolerant, brilliant, intellectual bunch and my encounters with them have almost always been enlightening.

Confused? So am I. I have membership with Astara although I admit I have neglected it a lot lately. Shame on me. I like their openness to the wisdom of every walk of life. I had been kept in the dark about so much out there and I confess to my ignorance about a lot of it, but I am always learning or at least trying to learn.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)

Exilus
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Post by Exilus »

yes but I suck with spelling names I don't see alot of..lol.. and yes we were actually really good friends and took alot of pleasure freeking out our NCOs who didn't know anything about our two religions, save what they were taught in their churches, when we wouldnt go out parting we would sta home and teach other the different things about our religions.

This aloud us to see were our two religions both clashed and joined. From what I learned from him, They take the title of satanist mainly for the same reasons we took on the titles of witch and wizard to dispite prosecuters. During the burning ages.

Their rituals like ours began wearing full hooded cloaks, during that time not for any true magical purpose but because you had to hide your face during rituals, it was easier that way, if you didn't see me you didn't have to lie if you got caught and were asked.

Their religion he went further to teach me, is more like that of the Lucifer Son god religion of the norse and Viking tribes. The history story I mentioned said this.


Before the crusades satan had no name, when he was portrayed in stone he was just like all other angels save in black onyx, or painted black stone, to protray him as being cast out impure, where the rest were in marble or white alabaster.

The crusaders began to move north and crossed the path of the sun god, and got their asses kicked for 10 years, ten years war raged between the crusaders and the followers of the sun god. When it ended with the crusaders finally acheiving a victory, they returned south and with them brought a statue of the gods image, The son god had the horns and feet of a goat and a tail on the form of an arrow. This was because the statues were also used as sun dials.

But after their return the name of satan suddenly became Lucifer, and the images and statues of the bastion of evil to christians suddenly began to have the horns of a goat and a arrow spiked tail.

An immage not fitting for a creature that was once praised as gods most glorius angels.

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Post by androsan »

Very nice article I see here. I actually read it all the way through to the end, and I actually learned a few things. I am what you would probably call a Christian Witch in that paragraph, only I am a male. I have just recently started learning more about Paganism, and attempt to practice it. My first step, which is what I am still trying to do, is to find my Animal Totem. I have checked many sites to help guide me along, but I am still having troubles. I am confident, though, that I will find it when my totem decides to reveal itself to me.

FYI, I've been a member here since, like, early 2006, maybe late 2005, just haven't really been able to get around to posting.

Sercee
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Post by Sercee »

"These Devil Worshippers are a sect of Christianity, even though Christianity does not want to claim them."

------------

Lots of interesting stuff, though I would like to refute this above statement.

Devil worshippers, Satanists, are in no way a 'part' of Christainity. Christainity is a faith of those who follow Christ and have a personal relationship with Christ. Satanists have no relationship with Christ other than mocking and contempt for him. Satanism at best is a b*stard religion that sprouted off from a central belief in the God of Abraham in ancient Hebrew which worships the all time loser Lucifier who thought himself better than God until he got his butt kicked. So, Satanists form their own group, write their own "bible" and try to put their spin on things.
Hey just thought I'd post something in response to this.

The way I interpret this isn't that Christians or Christ have a personal relationship. In the past, when the clergy and 'their' governments were trying to spread the word of Christ, they had a hard time getting the pagan religions to convert. One of the tactics they used was to create this nasty goat-legged guy (one of the forms) with the (usually upside down) pentacle as his synbol to represent evil and the antithesis to God. This was meant to associate the pentacle, a known pagan symbol, with evil and to scare and intimidate the people into following God because He was their salvation. If I believed in God, then Satan (aka 'adversary' as was pointed out earlier in this thread) would be Lucifer who was the Archangel who questioned God's plan. God cast him out for his presumption (defending the humans) and gave him 'hell' to tend the souls who had disobeyed God's word.

But I don't believe in either. Just a story that kind of makes sense to me.

Sercee
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Post by Sercee »

Oh yeah, forgot...

Wonderful article about 'What is a Pagan'!

Eretik
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Post by Eretik »

This is a great article, look at the discussion which has taken off from this!
I have met Satanic followers of Lavey and found them to be perfectly sane and reasonable, I also met some ,so called satanists , one in particular, who should be avoided at all costs. I have heard of extreme and evil behaviour from those who steal the 'Satanic Cloak' and think it makes them able to get away with horrific behaviour and the manipulation of the needy or naive, who are often drugged into situations where they can be pressured and blackmailed into servitude. These people are NOT Satanists just evil, and there is a big difference between Satanism and evil. I like the mature and tolerant, understanding shown here in this discussion by several members in this regard. I saw that quote posted by Phorum Ghost about Anton Szandor Lavey and I have to say, he sounds a bit like me - to put that in context - Humility is a quality we often learn through our bad behaviour and the shame and guilt which apply with conscience, either our own or that applied by the retaliation of our victims. Sometimes the best lessons are learned the hardest way. I have been taught and learned how to be a better person mainly through my mistakes and 'walking a mile in their shoes' I will also do whatever is necessary to protect my kin and kindred - no one harms my family without serious consequences - that, for me, is a question of personal honour and not one of karma or return and not something I will leave to others to sort out. I am human and I have failings and make mistakes - I aspire to the divine, looking up to the Sky but my feet are in the mud and dirty.

Spionen

Post by Spionen »

Interesting article.

The related research it prompted me to do led me to a site about Scientific Pantheism, which I'd never heard of until today, but which resonates with me at a level no other religion ever has.

("When you are in the midst of nature, in a forest, by the sea, on a mountain peak - do you ever feel a sense of the sacred, like the feeling of being in a vast cathedral? Do you believe that humans should be a part of Nature, rather than set above it?
Are you skeptical about a "God" other than Nature and the wider Universe? Yet do you feel an emotional need for a recognition of something greater than your own self or than the human race?"

...asks pantheism.net, possibly the least professional-looking website I have ever enjoyed to this degree).

Anyway, thanks again for the article, which not only indirectly led me there, but also cleared up some of my questions about Paganism in general.

Love,
Spionen

PaganEgyptian

Post by PaganEgyptian »

I would like to comment on the above statement. I believe the Devil or Satan lives in only abrahamic religions, not just Christianity or Judaism. Abraham is the centerpoint person of many religions including Christian, Catholic, Jew, Islam, Latter Day Saints and more. Many do not know Islam is branched from Judaism.

Islamic creator Muhamed intially stated that Pagan Goddesses are daughters of Allah, but then had to retract the statetment as that conflicts his own phrophecies. Ask any Muslim, most have no idea of what a Pagan is. As they are not taught on how to hate Pagans, only other Abrahamic religions.
Pagan , in generic definition, is an umbrella term for non mainstream religion. as 99% of all mainstream religions are interconnected. The only exception is Hinduism. But even Hindus are considered Pagans by collegiate scholars.
-Tim

Sercee
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Post by Sercee »

I think its funny how 'pagan' changed in meaning. It was originally the term for 'peasant' 'serf' 'countryman', basically anyone living a rural or village life. These people practiced various earth religions based on what was important to them - the harvest and survival, mainly. Pagan turned into a derogatory term aimed at these people by the nobles, which in turn taunted the religions rather than the just the people. How there can be so much ignorance and arrogance is beyond me (even with what's going on today).

And now, any pagan is proud to be one.

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