Lilith's Cave

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

I decided it is high time to start a blog based on my spiritual evolution. I have tried a lot of religions. I did Aztec reconstruction for 7 years. I won't go back.

Some of the recons I knew, even outside of the sphere of Aztec, hated eclecticism, learning new religions or philosophy, and called me a "religious butterfly" for not conforming to their standards. (Like no one has tried different religions in their life or are eclectic?) I was also turned off by their incessant pushing of hard polytheism-a concept non-existent in the ancient world but is default for recons. It became sort of like Abrahamic religion with hard monotheism, and I felt that, even though they called me pushy and offensive about upg, they are were far more pushy about their opinions/upg about gods. The I am right, you're wrong mentality. (Elitist to a point and declaring themselves priests by divine order, too.) I eventually became socially ostracized which never helped me as a recon, I did things by myself for those 7 years. Completely lost. The negativity I encountered with the community has scarred me for life. (Cultural purists would be more of what I would call them.)

I have always incorporated Indian beliefs in my Wicca and witchcraft because of the help Buddhist philosophy and Hindu gods helped me. I do not consider myself Hindu, (More of Indo-Wiccan) I am very liberal and I eat cow, also meat. Though I understand the philosophy of ahimsa. I've been trying to go back to Neo-Wicca because it made me the happiest of all. But even though I love Egyptian, Celtic, Greek, and Roman gods, whom I still work with, I have been drawn by India.

Today, I live in the middle of nowhere mountain area, I went to go get cigs. (Yes, I know bad habit.) I know the guy there, did not know he is Hindu. I laid my phone on the counter and Kali ma's image was my wallpaper. He asked to see it. I showed it to him and he began to pray.

He started telling me how he couldn't believe I worship Hindu gods, and knew he Durga was. He told me of how he got his green card and he prayed, they almost deported him. (He has no crimes at all.) He told me that he does mantras like I do and he felt a kinship with me. "You're Hindu. I feel like you're my sister now!" I have never been so welcomed by practitioners before and I met many pagans.

He told me India felt very spiritual, but America not so much. I can see what he means by that. India is a very spiritual place.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Tutmosis
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Tutmosis »

I hope to visit India one day.

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

tutmosis wrote:I hope to visit India one day.
Yeah, same here. Everyone I met always takes spiritual aspects of India and bring them to where ever they settle. Not just Americans either. I had a friend who is a spiritual atheist, spent a lot of time in India. He had some of that practice in his own after being there.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:26 pm
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Been doing a lot of self-reflection. I wanted to start being initiated into Wicca, but the gods may have other plans for me? The first non-Abrahamic religion I ever tried was Buddhism and that got me through a lot. Even now I still use some Buddhist philosophy.

With Kali ma, I had tried Hinduism a bit before when I fell out of Neo-Wicca about a decade ago. However, the Aztec gods interrupted this and demanded me be with them. I was for 7 long years, being so influenced by Asia, I always maintained my Hindu cosmology because it fit what I experienced in my magical practices. In that I also had eclectic magical practices. Even though I considered myself an Aztec reconstructionist, as I have said before, Kali ma was always dear to me and her idol was always maintained somewhere in my home. I kept my deep respect for her.

Speaking of Kali ma, recently I came to the conclusion while talking of her on this message board that I couldn't be an atheist. If I was I would still praise Kali ma. I was far too enthusiastic about her and talking about her to be an atheist.

After I left the Aztec religion 2 years ago, I tried Neo-Wicca again because it made me happy. But now.... I don't think Shiva will let me be a Wiccan anymore. I think he is firm on me being Hindu. He seems to be okay with me calling myself a Indo-Pagan (Not Indo-Wiccan though.) because I retain a lot of eclectic magical practices and he doesn't seem bothered by that as much. He is more into me being into the deva/devis. I want to remain in the pagan community, I feel so conflicted about this though. I still have idols of different pantheons of gods and I do revere them to a degree. Just not as much as the devas.

If I worked this stuff out when I was a child and had not blindly followed Aztec gods for 7 years, I think I wouldn't feel so conflicted at age 30.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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moonraingirl
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by moonraingirl »

How do you know that Shiva doesn't want you to be Wiccan?
I know this may sound rude or ironic but I ask genuinely. How does one know what gods (don't) want?

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

moonraingirl wrote:How do you know that Shiva doesn't want you to be Wiccan?
I know this may sound rude or ironic but I ask genuinely. How does one know what gods (don't) want?
I have upg. I think it's more Shaktism (tantra) for me. But I figure that I will meditate on Shiva and ask him myself. It's a complicated issue.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Tutmosis
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Tutmosis »

What's upg?

But I've been able to speak to various gods. They mostly send me impressions and emotion than long winded talks.

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Tutmosis
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Tutmosis »

It's possible

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

tutmosis wrote:What's upg?

But I've been able to speak to various gods. They mostly send me impressions and emotion than long winded talks.
UPG is unverified personal gnosis. It means your personal experiences with deities, spirits, and the like are not scientific facts. A lot of people try to push upg as fact, even some recons, though they say they're not supposed to. Any kind of spiritual experience is subjective. So, that's essentially what they're saying.

There is some sub-divisions of UPG. There is SPG or Shared Personal Gnosis where multiple people have the same experience, usually with gods. CPG which is Confirmed Personal Gnosis meaning you had an experience that you later could confirm in academic sources about a god or being (etc) and did not initially know about. I had a lot of those as well.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Tutmosis
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Gender: Male

Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Tutmosis »

Oh really? I have a few of those then.

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

I've had all 3 and it is amazing to experience. I am very glad that modern pagans have developed their own semantics such as these because it is extremely helpful to anyone learning.

Edit, here is a link explaining more in depth:

https://books.google.com/books?id=GpaxD ... an&f=false
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Corbin
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Corbin »

(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.

People can be fragile when their beliefs are challenged and I suggest it shows a lack of understanding of "truth" both sides of the fence. Truth is not Fact, just as Belief is not Faith.

Truth (not fact) is subjective, being a glimpse of something universal and hard to grasp seen through the narrow gaze of an individual, a spiritual "moment" which makes that gaze a little bit broader. Thats why it is known as "Personal Truth" - moments of clarity, those epiphanies, those satori, change your point of perspective - spiritual growth - so next time? The initiating point of "Truth" has moved also. Truth is the questing beast, the Grail of many shapes and forms.

My entire spiritual journey was triggered by Initiation, a spiritual moment that changed my entire life (and continues to do so). I was pushed from behind.

I didn't get hung up on analysing the cause when I was too busy being effected; being carried by the wave of the effect.

The cause is less important then the effect - spirit is a protein stew of energy and symbolism, both personal and universal, viewed through a particularly unreliable processer with its own infrastructure (the mind) in the process of being expanded.

Confirmed Personal Gnosis however is a bit of a tripwire, a controversial aside because no empirical proof (measurable) can be provided, it cannot be confirmed. Its intellectual arguement bait.

Rise above them? blue_flee

-------

Unverified Personal Gnosis,
how tastelessly your tagged,
boxed in so indiscreetly,
in stark terror at your brag.

Because words cannot constrain you
when our blood runs through our hands,
no obedient slave of reason,
how you laugh at its demands.

You're wild and free,
to speak your truth,
and to the rest?
Be damned!

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Lord_of_Nightmares
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.
People can be fragile when their beliefs are challenged and I suggest it shows a lack of understanding of "truth" both sides of the fence. Truth is not Fact, just as Belief is not Faith.
Our motto, dealing with a lot of different kinds of pagans, is that beliefs are not facts. The only real thing factual about certain beliefs, is that they exist and what they believe. But none of that proves anything beyond this.
Truth (not fact) is subjective, being a glimpse of something universal and hard to grasp seen through the narrow gaze of an individual, a spiritual "moment" which makes that gaze a little bit broader. Thats why it is known as "Personal Truth" - moments of clarity, those epiphanies, those satori, change your point of perspective - spiritual growth - so next time? The initiating point of "Truth" has moved also. Truth is the questing beast, the Grail of many shapes and forms.

My entire spiritual journey was triggered by Initiation, a spiritual moment that changed my entire life (and continues to do so). I was pushed from behind.

I didn't get hung up on analysing the cause when I was too busy being effected; being carried by the wave of the effect.

The cause is less important then the effect - spirit is a protein stew of energy and symbolism, both personal and universal, viewed through a particularly unreliable processer with its own infrastructure (the mind) in the process of being expanded.
I agree with this so much. Where would we be without our spiritual experiences? The way I see it is diversity is something to be celebrated, because we don't always have the answers. I love the idea gods cannot be proved for this reason. they are ideas, and it is amazing what humans see in those ideas. Unfortunately, a lot of people want to be right and this matters to them more so. I care more about harmony and seeing different truths, even ones I don't agree with, then being "right". (Whatever that means when you can't prove such and such exists, anyway.)
Confirmed Personal Gnosis however is a bit of a tripwire, a controversial aside because no empirical proof (measurable) can be provided, it cannot be confirmed. Its intellectual arguement bait.
This is a good point and is oft forgotten in the recon community. A lot of people, as mentioned before, throw around upg in a dismissive way. When someone has upg that is "confirmed', so to speak, they would generally act as though they were superior. But really they're just going by what ancient people believed in the first place, thus it was never "proved". And oh boy, can ancient people be wrong sometimes. (Ex: Egyptians thinking the brain is a useless organ.) I really think critical thinking and questioning your own upg with a dose of healthy skepticism is always a good thing.
Rise above them? blue_flee

-------

Unverified Personal Gnosis,
how tastelessly your tagged,
boxed in so indiscreetly,
in stark terror at your brag.

Because words cannot constrain you
when our blood runs through our hands,
no obedient slave of reason,
how you laugh at its demands.

You're wild and free,
to speak your truth,
and to the rest?
Be damned!
^great poem.

Unrelated to the quotes above, but related to my spiritual journey, I just updated my blog about it: https://thespiralgrove.com/2017/05/25/h ... within-me/
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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Corbin
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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Corbin »

Lady_Lilith wrote:
Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.
Always enriching to see my vulgar rhyming appreciated - many thanks.


Far from discounting them (UPG), I suggest for the individual they are some of the most important things in the world to them - because they ARE personal or intimate - they have the power to genuinely, on a spiritual level, initiate, represent and harness the essence of change and spiritual evolution, whether you call it by mystical terms; "the great work" or psychological ones; "individuation" or recognise that the one thing is an echo or voice of the other.

-------

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern."

- William Blake

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Re: Lilith's Cave

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

Corbin wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote:
Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.
Always enriching to see my vulgar rhyming appreciated - many thanks.


Far from discounting them (UPG), I suggest for the individual they are some of the most important things in the world to them - because they ARE personal or intimate - they have the power to genuinely, on a spiritual level, initiate, represent and harness the essence of change and spiritual evolution, whether you call it by mystical terms; "the great work" or psychological ones; "individuation" or recognise that the one thing is an echo or voice of the other.
Exactly. Technically, every spiritual revelation or practice involves upg in some form or another. They're inspiration and they have inspired man to do some of their best work, such as art and philosophy. (Religion--->Philosophy---->Science) Religion may be discounted by some philosophies but some of these philosophies would have never existed without religion and then that went on to help science.
-------

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern."

- William Blake
This is a really good quote.
I am the Earth, The Sun and the Stars
And I am the also the Moon
I am all animal and birds,
And I am the outcast as well, and the thief
I am the low person of dreadful deeds,
And the great person of excellent deeds
I am Female. I am Male and I am Neuter.
- Devi

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