Yeah, same here. Everyone I met always takes spiritual aspects of India and bring them to where ever they settle. Not just Americans either. I had a friend who is a spiritual atheist, spent a lot of time in India. He had some of that practice in his own after being there.tutmosis wrote:I hope to visit India one day.
I have upg. I think it's more Shaktism (tantra) for me. But I figure that I will meditate on Shiva and ask him myself. It's a complicated issue.moonraingirl wrote:How do you know that Shiva doesn't want you to be Wiccan?
I know this may sound rude or ironic but I ask genuinely. How does one know what gods (don't) want?
UPG is unverified personal gnosis. It means your personal experiences with deities, spirits, and the like are not scientific facts. A lot of people try to push upg as fact, even some recons, though they say they're not supposed to. Any kind of spiritual experience is subjective. So, that's essentially what they're saying.tutmosis wrote:What's upg?
But I've been able to speak to various gods. They mostly send me impressions and emotion than long winded talks.
Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Our motto, dealing with a lot of different kinds of pagans, is that beliefs are not facts. The only real thing factual about certain beliefs, is that they exist and what they believe. But none of that proves anything beyond this.People can be fragile when their beliefs are challenged and I suggest it shows a lack of understanding of "truth" both sides of the fence. Truth is not Fact, just as Belief is not Faith.
I agree with this so much. Where would we be without our spiritual experiences? The way I see it is diversity is something to be celebrated, because we don't always have the answers. I love the idea gods cannot be proved for this reason. they are ideas, and it is amazing what humans see in those ideas. Unfortunately, a lot of people want to be right and this matters to them more so. I care more about harmony and seeing different truths, even ones I don't agree with, then being "right". (Whatever that means when you can't prove such and such exists, anyway.)Truth (not fact) is subjective, being a glimpse of something universal and hard to grasp seen through the narrow gaze of an individual, a spiritual "moment" which makes that gaze a little bit broader. Thats why it is known as "Personal Truth" - moments of clarity, those epiphanies, those satori, change your point of perspective - spiritual growth - so next time? The initiating point of "Truth" has moved also. Truth is the questing beast, the Grail of many shapes and forms.
My entire spiritual journey was triggered by Initiation, a spiritual moment that changed my entire life (and continues to do so). I was pushed from behind.
I didn't get hung up on analysing the cause when I was too busy being effected; being carried by the wave of the effect.
The cause is less important then the effect - spirit is a protein stew of energy and symbolism, both personal and universal, viewed through a particularly unreliable processer with its own infrastructure (the mind) in the process of being expanded.
This is a good point and is oft forgotten in the recon community. A lot of people, as mentioned before, throw around upg in a dismissive way. When someone has upg that is "confirmed', so to speak, they would generally act as though they were superior. But really they're just going by what ancient people believed in the first place, thus it was never "proved". And oh boy, can ancient people be wrong sometimes. (Ex: Egyptians thinking the brain is a useless organ.) I really think critical thinking and questioning your own upg with a dose of healthy skepticism is always a good thing.Confirmed Personal Gnosis however is a bit of a tripwire, a controversial aside because no empirical proof (measurable) can be provided, it cannot be confirmed. Its intellectual arguement bait.
^great poem.Rise above them?![]()
-------
Unverified Personal Gnosis,
how tastelessly your tagged,
boxed in so indiscreetly,
in stark terror at your brag.
Because words cannot constrain you
when our blood runs through our hands,
no obedient slave of reason,
how you laugh at its demands.
You're wild and free,
to speak your truth,
and to the rest?
Be damned!
Always enriching to see my vulgar rhyming appreciated - many thanks.Lady_Lilith wrote:Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Exactly. Technically, every spiritual revelation or practice involves upg in some form or another. They're inspiration and they have inspired man to do some of their best work, such as art and philosophy. (Religion--->Philosophy---->Science) Religion may be discounted by some philosophies but some of these philosophies would have never existed without religion and then that went on to help science.Corbin wrote:Always enriching to see my vulgar rhyming appreciated - many thanks.Lady_Lilith wrote:Yes, I see this first hand before in the pagan community in general. I don't think upg can be completely discounted, depending on the path. It's good for self-reflection.Corbin wrote:(Personal thoughts) UPG is also sadly a scientific way to define something far from science, and often used as a way to be dismissive and derogatory. These things are not important to followers of spiritual paths until they begin imposing their personal visions as "truth" on others - as "Universal Truths" for all.
Far from discounting them (UPG), I suggest for the individual they are some of the most important things in the world to them - because they ARE personal or intimate - they have the power to genuinely, on a spiritual level, initiate, represent and harness the essence of change and spiritual evolution, whether you call it by mystical terms; "the great work" or psychological ones; "individuation" or recognise that the one thing is an echo or voice of the other.
This is a really good quote.-------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern."
- William Blake