Question about "Evil"

[[WitchMomma]]

I don't understand "Evil" in relation to Wicca. I know that's a pretty broad statement. I need some help understanding.

I mean I have read quite a few books and really there is no mention about it, except in one.

The book "Wicca Demystified" by Bryan Lankford says: "Why is there evil in the world? The short answer is there's not evil in the world. We only percieve things as evil....." Further in it says "It's the Wiccan perspective that Deity reveals itself through nature and that there is no evil in nature."

If this is so then how do we explain the killers, abusers, etc. ?

It goes on with a big explaination but I am still very confused. The more I am writing this post the harder I am finding it is to explain what I am trying to ask.

Any help??? This is the only area I am really struggling with, I feel silly.

[Eretik]

Don't feel silly.There are no dumb questions.I am not Wiccan,so my perspective may not be what you are seeking, but I believe in evil, I've touched it, danced with it,fought it and won,fought it and been left battered by it too.Evil is a human trait and a purely 'worldly' phenomenon.It exists in this world.Some actions are unjustifiable, no matter what your 'perception' or another's may say.We do not make laws to herd in the moral, we have them to sanction those who would otherwise act amorally,without the restrictions being there to hold them back.I think the spiritual,the astral and the 'otherworldy', is beyond this dualism we are so fond of,in this world - good/evil or black/white,etc.However those who manifest there can tap into the energies for whichever purpose they wish,be that good or evil or neither.Negative energy is energy just as much as any other type and for some ",the end justifies the means",you don't have to believe in evil for evil to believe in you. To quote Neitzche" there is no beast,without cruelty"

[Sobek]

I think in the context of that paragraph you copied, it parallels nature || natural so along that train of thought evil and good are nature in their own accord as "perceived" by human judgement in so saying, nature can't be good or evil because it doesnt adhere to such categorisation.

where did I pull that from, I don't know. But I agree with Geri

[[WitchMomma]]

Don't feel silly.There are no dumb questions.I am not Wiccan,so my perspective may not be what you are seeking, but I believe in evil, I've touched it, danced with it,fought it and won,fought it and been left battered by it too.Evil is a human trait and a purely 'worldly' phenomenon.It exists.I think the spiritual,the astral and the 'otherworldy', is beyond this dualism we are so fond of,in this world - good/evil or black/white,etc.However those who manifest there can tap into the energies for whichever purpose they wish,be that good or evil or neither.Negative energy is energy just as much as any other type and for some ",the end justifies the means",you don't have to believe in evil for evil to believe in you. To quote Neitzche" there is no beast,without cruelty"

Thanks Eretik. My thinking was that it is just human nature. I have seen also what I consider "pure" evil in people.

One thing I love about Wicca is that it can be very individualized and I suppose I can interpret it in my own way. (Which is what I normally do anyhow).

I appeciate all input Wiccan or not. So thank you.

[Ethereal_Crow]

i believe that evil exists. different people have different descriptions of what evil is. there are very few universals when it comes to evil. most people can confidently say that killing is evil. but what about self defense? murdering another soul in defense of yourself cant be looked at in the same regard as pointless selfish cold blooded murder. evil really exists in the context of how it is executed. thats my belief. there definaltly is a difference between good and evil. every religion has its perspectives. most religions will tell you that killing is evil as well as stealing, lying, cheating and pre marital sex (if you are following christian doctrin). i think that the intent of the action counts more than the actual act. sex between two people who realize the true pure love between the two are hardly evil in my opinion. i have other personal beliefs about good and evil but for now im talking about the basics.

[The Judge]

(I'm Wiccan but this is a personal belief)I don't believe in evil persay, but for those that are killers rapers etc., I catagorize them as mistakes or extreme boughts of pure stupidity, some people just can't escape their baser natures, we all have it in us to be killers and rapers etc. but over the millenia we have learned to control our instincts and become civilized, some people just revert to there "cave man" ways. hope this helps.

[Ethereal_Crow]

thats a very good point judge. i hadnt thought of it that way before... but if we are just supressing our inner natures to kill...who or what defined evil as what it is and good as what it is? why are there catagories? im not trying to dis your point, just trying to further the conversation. i have lots of deep and seemingly unaswerable questions about good and evil. if humans were born innocent then wouldnt the natural instinct to kill be the norm? the innocent way of thinking? who or what decided that that course of action as a human was evil? there are no right or wrong answers i suppose. im just trying to be and an even plane of thinking. not taking any sides just asking important questions.

[[Obsidian]]

I guess for me it depends what exactly you understand as evil. I don't think that there is some random being that anthropomorphises evil; a being that embodies it and makes other people committ evil acts. As a matter of fact, while I do believe that there are spirits that want to do us harm I think that no spirit, demon, or devil (if you believe in them) could even think up the things we humans do to each other and others; and then we go a step further and dare to claim that we do it for the good of others.
I do think that it is inherent in the being of everything living that it can do things that hurt someone else; some more than others. Intent plays a big role for this, but I don't think anyone is, or has ever been, complete evil without some love in him or her. Even Hitler had his good side. He loved his dog dearly and he liked children. This does not mean that any of his other acts are any less despicable.

Durkheim argued that we are moral beings to the degree that we are social beings. In his mind we were all nastly little buggers who would do whatever is best for us unless we are socially controlled by society. That is what parents, the school system and other social institutions do for us. Of course, socialization is not equally effective for us all and some are better socialized than others. So, yes, I agree with judge, some of us, because socialization wasn't internalized as well, do think that violate others. Just my 0.02c as a Wiccan Sociologist/Criminologist.

Harry

[jcrowfoot]

Ok, Jcrow brings out her massive two pennies (made of wood).

Here's my thought on the subject of evil. Yes, I think evil exists. Yes, I think that there are beings who can assist that line of thinking once you got yourself there already. Meaning, you have to open the door to let in intent, and that demons (yes, I think they exist, but I don't think they are what a lot of people think they are) are creatures of opportunity rather than the all pervasive corruptive force in the Universe thing.

So, what do I mean by that? Well... I think that me and most of the people who've posted here already will agree that there are spirit beings that don't like us and mean us harm. From there, I think that those beings that are called "demons" are energetic beings that align with those forces that think we suck, and will, when the opportunity is granted to them, seem to aid the cause of one who does harmful things. However, what that being does is in fact use that person to further whatever aims they have.

So, how does this differ from the Christian version?

Simple. They can't change our minds. They can't send corrupting vibes in our general direction and effect us. At least, not until we've decided to say a course of harmful destruction already.

Now, that phrase is important. See, the world is made up of creation and destruction, and some destruction is a good thing. For example, if you have an old growth forest, those trees are very nice. But they block out light for the smaller plants, and if you do some selective burning periodically, you get new plants in and clear some of the dead things and old sickly trees that are simply spreading parasites to the larger trees. That's one of the reasons why (besides forgeiners in the ecosystem) that many of our trees today look so sickly and are prone to disease... the fires have been suppressed by the forest protectors for nigh on 50-60 to at least 100 years. This is not good.

Stagnation is a more harmful vibe than tearing down.

I also don't think that those harmful beings are constantly waiting in the wings, watching everyone for an opportunity to strike. I think that the world, in most normal places at least, is pretty hostile to these beings, considering how powerful our (and us-positive) forces are in this world.

[Ethereal_Crow]

ever wonder where these evil spiritual beings come from tho? and is there a universal for evil? human sacrifice was accepted in ancient cultures long ago but isnt now in modern times. has the concept of what is evil and what is good changed over time? will we ever know what true evil is?

[thatguy]

Ok, Jcrow brings out her massive two pennies (made of wood).

So, how does this differ from the Christian version?

Simple. They can't change our minds. They can't send corrupting vibes in our general direction and effect us. At least, not until we've decided to say a course of harmful destruction already.

Here's my two pennies (made of imitation wood ).

I believe there are evil spirits, or spirits in general who can influence how
a person perceives or interprets the world. That is, two people can
witness the same event, yet interpret it in two entirely different ways. In
this way, I think it is possible for an evil spirit to trick one into embarking
upon the very action which will bring about their own misery.

However, as jcrowfoot points out, the individual must still take
responsibility for their actions in allowing their perceptions to be moved in
such a way. To have 'opened the door' so to speak.

I believe that effecting a person's point of view is one of the basic ways in
which the spirit world can be seen to influence the mundane world. A
calm and centred mind is less vulnerable to this kind of influence, but
certainly not immune.

Please don't take my statements too seriously however, this is just my
opinion, and my knowledge is grossly lacking in many areas.

Hmm, maybe these words aren't yet worth two pennies. Will anyone take
an IOU?

cheers,

T. Guy

[[Obsidian]]

I think that's my point ethereal, there is no such thing as unequivocal evil, just as there is no such thing as unequivocal good. There are only behaviors that are interpreted based on the socialization you have received, the norms and mores of the current society, and your specific side on issues. Termites that make your house cave in could be seen as evil but if you move away from the "they broke my house, I've lost millions" thought the only thing they did was what they do for a living: build nests, procreate and find food.

Harry

[[Obsidian]]

I'll give you a handshake for them thatguy

Harry

[[WitchMomma]]

Hum - I am given lots of good points, ideas and personal beliefs to ponder over now. I am bound to come conclusion in time.

The though of "evil" gives me lots to think about though I will spend more time on thinking of the positive and beautiful in life instead. It keeps me sane!