Homosexuality and wicca

[onyxnight]

My question is, can wiccans and/or witches be lesbian? I believe it has been said that the Gardnerian form of wicca disapproved of homosexuality and strongly believed the idea of the polarity being a man and a woman, I do not recall if Alexandrian wicca believes this or not. I am aware of Dianic wicca, however, they exclude male deities. Basically, I guess what I am asking is if there is a place for wiccans that are in a lesbian relationship but also believe in both female and male deities? Can one still consider themselves wiccan or a practioner of witchcraft? Are there any rules that would make it difficult or not possible for a witch like that? Also, from what I've studied, an eclectic witch is one who pretty much follows their own path in wicca, could this be considered an individual who is in a lesbian relationship? I am just a little unsure on what an eclectic witch is exactly and what they can/cannot believe. If anyone can help me out on this that would be greatly appreciated, as I am going crazy trying to figure this out if you cannot tell.


edit: I appologize if this topic has already been brought up and I am just reposting what someone else has posted, I looked around on the board and couldn't find anything so I just decided to post the question.

Again, thank you to whomever replies.

[corvidus]

Hi there. My own personal experience has shown me that the male-female polarity is necessary for creation in general, but the male-female polarity arises out of One, androgynous Principle (for lack of a better word).

Basically, I think our spirit is androgynous, and has both the active and passive potential. Over the course of our various manifestations of spirit, we evolve both sides of this polarity. Sometimes individually, sometimes coherently. It’s for this reason that I think anyone who says gays and lesbians are going against the natural order are profoundly mistaken and lacking in their education. In fact, the wisest person I ever met, who mentored me for a few years, is homosexual. He’s also one of the most respected men in his profession.

So to answer your question, I think any tradition which condemns homosexuality is missing the higher perspective as part of their curriculum and practices and is trying to appeal to a certain culture or mindset, and probably isn’t worth the time. Witchcraft has absolutely nothing to do with orientation. It deals with a set of skills, abilities, knowledge and understanding acquired and developed over time.

[Firebird]

Worry no longer, you are home. Eclectic is kinda our thing here.
Even in my group which has had gay men, gay women, trans, queer and bi, pass through our circle.
The biggest issue I would say is when it comes down to doing cakes and ale (the great rite) trying to find ways to please all calls for some creative words to make it happen.
Bb, Firebird

[L.J.Hex]

I don't think there's anything stopping you from being Wiccan/witch regardless of your sexual preference, or any other preference in life? And I agree on what Corvidus said, every person has a male/female sides to their being.

For example, I'm straight(Mostly.) guy, but I have quite strong feminine side to the way I think and how my mind works which I actually like a lot, perhaps that's one of the reasons why witchcraft is my thing and I like some things which can be considered rather "girly".

If your sexual preference is a problem to some coven or a person, they're the ones who have a problem, not you, and I suggest you find someone with more open mind? Certain rituals which require man/woman thing might be different, if you're in a group who have it as part of their tradition?

Depends on lot of stuff, but I don't think being homosexual etc. is any kind of problem.

[SpiritTalker]

Eclectic simply indicates a random practice vs a single tradition & has no gender tags associated with it. Solitaire indicates a personal, non-coven practice & has no gender tags. Polarity for magical use as an alchemists' observation indicates passive energy and active energy in the flux & reflux of energy manipulation (magic). A staunch trad-wiccan can cleave to their polarity bias but most wiccans are more flexible. Covens make their own rules that apply only to their own members & will usually state gender restrictions up front. I've encountered open & restricted covens. People of any gender fluidity can practice witchcraft.

I also agree that the initial, creative force and the human soul/spirit are androgynous.

Most witchcraft practices are eclectic adaptations of one tradition or another in that witchcraft as magic is practiced by different faiths, can be religious or secular, with varying regional practices, trads & ritual forms. Supposedly the forms of ritual, tools, concept of 1-2-or-more deities are what set traditions apart. Discussions bog down pretty quickly when considering how much adapting can be done before a trad practice goes eclectic. Gardner's Wica was an adaptation itself of Masonry, ceremonial& regional magic. Dithering goes nowhere.

[onyxnight]

Thank you to everyone for such beautiful replies, you all have definitely cleared everything up for me. For so long I have been hazy on this subject and actually quite scared that I would not be welcomed or not belong. I have always felt rejected from religion and then I found a calling to wicca, but was worried when I realized there weren't many lgbtq wiccan youtubers or even authors or anything of the sort, and of course, all that I read throughout research which has been hazy on the topic of lgbtq people in wicca. To firebirdflys, thank you! I have always felt at home with wicca, I have always felt that I was a witch, even in my childhood. I would practice spellwork without even knowing they were spells, I always felt like I belonged to the earth, and I have always had a special relationship with animals. I've always felt that Wicca is where I belonged and practicing withcraft has always felt right to me, so you telling me that I am home makes me very happy. I do feel as if I can rest easy now without worrying as much. I never actually looked at it in the way that everyone has a male/female side to their being, but putting more thought into it, that is actually very true and a great way to look at it. I have always felt it more fair to consider the female-male polarity androgynous and this actually makes a lot of sense to me. I feel like enough religions exclude individuals for their orientation already and it is so unfair. It would be especially unfair to exclude someone from such a beautiful practice due to their orientation. Knowing that I am not excluded gives me peace. Thank you again for all of your beautiful replies. Blessed be!

[SpiritTalker]

- I just checked Temple of WC website Reading list and Gay Witchcraft is one of the books by Chris Penczak, co-founder of Temple of Witchcraft who also wrote the series of training books.
http://templeofwitchcraft.org/sagittari ... ding-list/

[Corbin]

Masculine is not male, feminine is not female; these are coorespondances - like the 'thing' in someway but not the 'thing' itself - symbolic not literal.

How you naturally express your sexuality has nothing to do with this - we are liminal creations, all composed of differing measures and dimensions of 'yin and yang' and - potentially and regardless of sexuality - 'mystical hermathrodites' - should that be the path we recognise.

Ultimately it is people that matter and being genuine to your self.

bb x

[Lord_of_Nightmares]

My question is, can wiccans and/or witches be lesbian? I believe it has been said that the Gardnerian form of wicca disapproved of homosexuality and strongly believed the idea of the polarity being a man and a woman, I do not recall if Alexandrian wicca believes this or not.

This is incorrect. First, Gardner is not Jesus in covens or in Wicca. He is not a prophet. He is not infallible. He started Wicca and not everyone 100% agrees with him. His High Priestess Doreen Valiente clashed with him on the topic of homosexuality, Wicca does not, as a whole, exclude homosexuals just because certain individuals have problems with them. Also, Gardner took back what he said later and apologized to Doreen.

Second, the Charge of the Goddess specifically says that all acts of pleasure and love are of the Goddess. There have been many homosexual Wiccan witches; Scott Cunningham and Paul Huson are too big names of it. Alexander Sanders himself was bisexual.

Lastly, there are many inclusive lineaged Wiccans on Facebook. Almost nobody in the Gardnerian community would exclude people based on gender and sexuality. Alexanderian Wicca is a tad bit more eclectic but it came from Gardnerian.

I am aware of Dianic wicca, however, they exclude male deities.

Some do and some don't. Starhawk is not a Dianic Wiccan, but she goes into some things about the importance of the Goddess and her including the male in the Spiral Dance.

Basically, I guess what I am asking is if there is a place for wiccans that are in a lesbian relationship but also believe in both female and male deities?

There is. I am pretty bi but lesbian leaning, I am a masculine female as well. My patrons are the God and Goddess of Wicca, for me that is Cernunnos and I work with him extensively. I also work with gods such as Shiva, Ganesh, and Osiris a lot.

Can one still consider themselves wiccan or a practioner of witchcraft? Are there any rules that would make it difficult or not possible for a witch like that?

No, there is not. Being a homosexual has very little to do with being Wiccan or witchcraft. Most Wicca and witchcraft will have little to do with that.

Also, from what I've studied, an eclectic witch is one who pretty much follows their own path in wicca, could this be considered an individual who is in a lesbian relationship? I am just a little unsure on what an eclectic witch is exactly and what they can/cannot believe. If anyone can help me out on this that would be greatly appreciated, as I am going crazy trying to figure this out if you cannot tell.

Wicca is not synonymous with witchcraft. Wicca is a religion that incorporates witchcraft, but witchcraft by itself is not a religion. It is a practice. An eclectic witch would therefore, pull from multiple cultural sources, because 'eclectic' means no set tradition and combining what the practitioner pleases.

[onyxnight]

- I just checked Temple of WC website Reading list and Gay Witchcraft is one of the books by Chris Penczak, co-founder of Temple of Witchcraft who also wrote the series of training books.
http://templeofwitchcraft.org/sagittari ... ding-list/

This was such a beautiful reply to see! Thank you, thank you so much for this source. Blessed be.

[onyxnight]

My question is, can wiccans and/or witches be lesbian? I believe it has been said that the Gardnerian form of wicca disapproved of homosexuality and strongly believed the idea of the polarity being a man and a woman, I do not recall if Alexandrian wicca believes this or not.

This is incorrect. First, Gardner is not Jesus in covens or in Wicca. He is not a prophet. He is not infallible. He started Wicca and not everyone 100% agrees with him. His High Priestess Doreen Valiente clashed with him on the topic of homosexuality, Wicca does not, as a whole, exclude homosexuals just because certain individuals have problems with them. Also, Gardner took back what he said later and apologized to Doreen.

Second, the Charge of the Goddess specifically says that all acts of pleasure and love are of the Goddess. There have been many homosexual Wiccan witches; Scott Cunningham and Paul Huson are too big names of it. Alexander Sanders himself was bisexual.

Lastly, there are many inclusive lineaged Wiccans on Facebook. Almost nobody in the Gardnerian community would exclude people based on gender and sexuality. Alexanderian Wicca is a tad bit more eclectic but it came from Gardnerian.

I am aware of Dianic wicca, however, they exclude male deities.

Some do and some don't. Starhawk is not a Dianic Wiccan, but she goes into some things about the importance of the Goddess and her including the male in the Spiral Dance.

Basically, I guess what I am asking is if there is a place for wiccans that are in a lesbian relationship but also believe in both female and male deities?

There is. I am pretty bi but lesbian leaning, I am a masculine female as well. My patrons are the God and Goddess of Wicca, for me that is Cernunnos and I work with him extensively. I also work with gods such as Shiva, Ganesh, and Osiris a lot.

Can one still consider themselves wiccan or a practioner of witchcraft? Are there any rules that would make it difficult or not possible for a witch like that?

No, there is not. Being a homosexual has very little to do with being Wiccan or witchcraft. Most Wicca and witchcraft will have little to do with that.

Also, from what I've studied, an eclectic witch is one who pretty much follows their own path in wicca, could this be considered an individual who is in a lesbian relationship? I am just a little unsure on what an eclectic witch is exactly and what they can/cannot believe. If anyone can help me out on this that would be greatly appreciated, as I am going crazy trying to figure this out if you cannot tell.

Wicca is not synonymous with witchcraft. Wicca is a religion that incorporates witchcraft, but witchcraft by itself is not a religion. It is a practice. An eclectic witch would therefore, pull from multiple cultural sources, because 'eclectic' means no set tradition and combining what the practitioner pleases.

Merry Meet Lady_Lilith,
Your reply is what I have been looking for. This sums everything up perfectly for me. I had no idea that Gardner actually ended up apologizing for that, but to me it honestly seems ridiculous to exclude individuals based on gender from any religion, I've never understood why it is done. I did read something that disturbed me a bit and here is a quote from the article: "Ritual tries to create a human 'battery' for magickal force, and it uses the 'inevitable' attraction between Male and Female to provide the 'opposite charges'... 'You can't work magic with a homosexual. Homosexuals just can't create a current'"
(T. M. Luhrman, 1989; p.64)


I'm not sure what is going on in that quote, but why is he saying that homosexuals cannot create a current? This sounds so strange to me. Shouldn't it be that any living human being can create this current? Also, I'm certain there are wiccans who are female practice solitarily, absent of any male force, so none of this really makes any sense.

Anyway, thank you again for such a wonderful response and so much knowledge. Blessed be!

[corvidus]

I'm not sure what is going on in that quote, but why is he saying that homosexuals cannot create a current? This sounds so strange to me. Shouldn't it be that any living human being can create this current? Also, I'm certain there are wiccans who are female practice solitarily, absent of any male force, so none of this really makes any sense.

Anyway, thank you again for such a wonderful response and so much knowledge. Blessed be!

He’s saying that because he doesn’t know anything, which is more often the case than not when it comes to people who spend the majority of their time promoting their ego-ideas. This might be the first time you’ve been exposed to this, but the occult sciences are full of egomaniacs, charlatans, sociopaths and etc.

First off, ritual doesn’t necessarily include building up energy. In fact most cleansing rituals are designed to remove energy, and there are many rituals which aim at balancing the energy body (where there is neither a gain nor loss of energy).

The human body, regardless of sex or sexual orientation, has yin and yang currents. Yogic philosophy calls the two major ones along the spine Ida and Pingala. Biochemistry calls them the motor and autonomous nervous systems. Western ceremonial magic has started calling them the electric and magnetic fluids.

This internal Yin and Yang is our microcosmic version of the macrocosmic Yin and Yang (or Sun and Moon), and through it we can connect to and gather in an energetic ‘charge’ of either or of both.

If you’d like to learn more about that, the Taoists and the Yogis are a good place to start. There are also resources here on the forum which look at energy-work from a Pagan perspective.

[Astro Logical 1]

The human body, regardless of sex or sexual orientation, has yin and yang currents. Yogic philosophy calls the two major ones along the spine Ida and Pingala. Biochemistry calls them the motor and autonomous nervous systems. Western ceremonial magic has started calling them the electric and magnetic fluids.

This internal Yin and Yang is our microcosmic version of the macrocosmic Yin and Yang (or Sun and Moon), and through it we can connect to and gather in an energetic ‘charge’ of either or of both.

This is pretty spot on as far as I can tell. Even when I generate an energy field between my hands I'm of the understanding that there's a masculine/feminine aspect to that channeling of intention and energy.

The internal balance of emotion and logic itself is a masculine/feminine synchronicity.

I would argue that it's an active ingredient to the higher consciousness. Without it, we may not even have the capacity for influencing the natural flow of the universe

[SpiritTalker]

I do too - like a push and a pull of magnets or the flow spiraling one direction coming in and flipping the opposite direction going out & neutral at the hub. I can't help but think of lefty loosey, righty tighty.

[Siona]

So, I'm going to give a slightly different perspective when it comes to Wicca and some traditions of witchcraft - they may welcome people who are not straight, but that doesn't necessarily mean the tradition is going to click with you. I never felt excluded by the people of Wicca for not being straight, but the practices were still very hetero-normative. A God, a Goddess, fertility cult, heavy focus on gender and often on gender rolls, phallus into the womb is the only sexuality really explored in ritual, and all that. Obviously male/female polarity works for a lot of people, not just straight people, but how much it works for any individual... well, it varies. Even on a symbolic level. And it never worked for me. The heavy binary/duality found in many Wicca and some witchcraft traditions doesn't make sense to me, and I end up working more with triplicate symbolism...

Outside of Wicca, there are many, many traditions of witchcraft and paganism that do not focus so heavily on the male/female binary. (And yes, there is always the option to simply be eclectic and do what works for you!) Many pagan polytheists don't worship male/female pairs. They are polytheists who worship deities in all sorts of groupings - a single deity, a female/female pair, male/male, triads, and more. There are also classical pagan deities who weren't so clearly male or female, or loved people/deities of their own gender, etc. There is plenty of symbolism and myth to explore outside of the male/female pair, should one be drawn to it.

One book that talks a little more about this is "Casting a Queer Circle: Non-binary Witchcraft" by Thista Minai. It removes a lot of the gendered aspects of Wicca, explores other symbolism (within the tools, etc) and allows you to sort of put together the symbolism that works for you.