Harm None?

[Eve_Requiem]

So, the general thing that is consistent among all Wicca is "harm none," and I try hard to follow this.
When I see something doing harm, I even try my best to stop it.
So today I was in my backyard when I saw a small sapling with a vine on it. It seemed that the vine was detrimental to the tree, and preventing further growth, so I decided to remove it.
Only after that did I realize that the vine uses the tree for structure, and would not harm it if it could choose to.
So now I have just uprooted and killed a vine, and in doing so might have caused more harm than was being done.
What do you think about this? Is it right to leave the vine be, or to intervene? Have I broken the foremost "law" of Wicca?
Any insight or opinions (as long as they are presented politely) are welcomed and encouraged.
Many thanks and Blessings

[Siona]

Personally, I am not a Wiccan, and so don't follow the Wiccan Rede in particular... but I think if one is going to, they really need to look at the context the phrase 'harm none' appears in. The rede does not say "harm none." Which is important, because harm is unavoidable. Do you eat? Then you cause harm. Even a strict vegan causes harm to plants.

The rede says "an it harm none, do what ye will." In other words, if what you want to do doesn't cause harm, then go for it. The rede doesn't particularly say what to do if your action would cause harm, just that things that don't cause harm are not problems. You might compare this to other religions where things we might think of as harmless are strictly forbidden, considered sinful, etc. Wicca is not a religion which tries to impose rules - in fact, the rede itself is not a rule or a law, rede simply means advise or counsel. Advice doesn't always work across every situation, it's just something to consider. Additionally, some people have added the line "an it cause harm, do as ye must" to give further guidance.

As for the vine? Some species are invasive and absolutely awful for the surrounding environment and the native plants... but there are also many vines which do not harm the tree at all, and sometimes might even be beneficial in some ways. I think it's a good wider lesson, if you know harm is being caused it can be good to step in when you can, but it's always good to know the details, and make sure that the situation really is as it seems.

[Seraphin]

Is there really such a thing as a life that never, even indirectly or unconsciously, causes any harm to others?

Perhaps. But what would define that as a "truly morally Wiccan life?" You wouldn't hurt anyone, true, but neither would you aid too many either.

I believe we as a pagan chose this path to make this world a better place -- not just to avoid harming others. We didn't have to come down here if the goal was to "not cause harm to anyone." That was better accomplished by not being born at all. As I believe fully following the rede is simply impossible. You would have to act like those who follow Jainism in India, living a life where they even avoid stepping on a roach and allow flies to eat with them in their plate. Rather, I believe we're charged with a responsibility to create a more balanced and harmonious world.

That takes action. It takes interacting with others and interaction needs both giving and taking, helping and harming in one way or another.

I may cause harm to others when I take antibiotics because I kill bacteria in my body or when I go to shower and flush billions of pathogenic microbes away or when I suspended or fired someone in my company as a result of his/her misbehaviour or when I take a chicken egg from its mother's nest and fry it on a pan or when I purchase a healthy food from a supplier who maltreats his laborers.

Yes I may cause harm but I'm willing to risk those sorts of things. For I also know that it will benefit someone.

By all means, we shouldn't cause pointless pain if we can help it. But don't let the fear of harming others immobilize us.

And of course, we shouldn't support those causes that openly contradict our ethos and beliefs. But when in doubt, I prefer to err on the side of aiding, supporting and contributing.

[YanaKhan]

Hey, Eve_Requiem.
When I read your post, I thought of a recent argument I had with some of my friends about a case in my country. The case was, a man who decided to clean up a river bed. He did, and by doing that he helped the river stream, but he also had to uproot some bushes and even 2 trees that grew there. The argument I had was because he was fined for not consulting with the municipality and my friends were angry about that. But while doing a good deed by cleaning up the river bed, he did quite a lot of harm to the ecosystem.
So, my point here is to not blame yourself for acting the way you thought was right. Like Siona and Seraphin said, it's really impossible to not harm anyone or anything in your life. Don't over think every action you take and every move you make. Most of the time going by your instincts is a good idea. Try not to be so hard on yourself even if you make a mistake.

[Eve_Requiem]

Thank you so much to everyone who read or replied to this.
All of your messages have really put me at ease, and have helped me to realize that sometimes I will cause harm, and the best thing I can do is to accept that and try to make all harm I do minimal and at least purposeful (such as removing parasitic vines)

[Seventhwatcher]

Harm none is very idealistic. What if you cast a healing spell on someone, and in doing so? The spell requires there to be an injury. Magick isnt bound by Time. So did your healing spell, out of necessity cause the harm needed to heal?

Every moment you live you are taking a breath from something else. Crushing an insect. The food you eat is taking life from plants and animals. It is impossible to avoid causing harm in its various forms. Especially with magick.

[RosieMoonflower]

I know I'm relatively new to all this, but I would assume it is all
about intention. If your intentions are good, but things backfire or result in some harm in another way, that wasn't your intention and so you shouldn't blame yourself for it. That said you should recognize it and be apologetic for it, that's my opinion though.

Also, I think that before spells should be cast some serious thought should be into the possible pitfalls that the spell could create.

Harm none just doesn't seem possible even with the best of intentions and the most through you can put Into something, it could still accidentally cause harm. I think the phrase "harm none on purpose" might be more attainable.

Rosie

[Badgerstate]

Did you kill or injure the vine? If you just removed it from the sapling, you didnt really harm it and you prevented it from harming the sapling, which would have eventually happened.
IMO, harm none is not an absolute. What if someone is trying to kill you? Do you just let them kill you because of harm none? As in most things, there is no black and white; only an endless number of shades of gray.

[miazmo]

I had a similar experience, when clearing an overgrown old garden. There was a vine eating into the structure of the property, and causing harm to the brickwork. I decided to uproot the vine and re-plant it elsewhere in the garden where it would not cause so much damage. To have destroyed it would have been a shame, but the property had to be maintained. Sometimes we have hard decisions to make. As long as your intentions are good, I think you are on safe ground.

[Marie_Moonstone]

I feel as though it is all part of life's cycle. Birth life death rebirth and so on. As long as we are not purposefully harming setting in a negative situation it should be fine. It is part of the cycle. Yes doing harm could have karma reactions but it Ellis depend on the negative impact. You truly know all cirrcumstance's. Just like there shouldn't be light all the time you need dark as well. All in all I think you should do what your heart tells you. If your heart was telling you to save the sapling then so be it. Usually if I do something hat may cause harm for example pick my herbal or a flower. I thank it for it's existence. Hope that helped a bit. Just a different few to think about.

[Chalice]

A lot of witches and wiccans don't adhere to the rede.

But I admire folks that do. That at least try to do good in this world.

Me, I don't have it in my belief system, but I try and aspire to be 'of the light'.

Just sometimes especially with self defense, things get messy.

Ideals are often abandoned when your survival is threatened.

[Kat]

the rede not being an absolute, and having good intentions are right I think. but also cosider that you have to use your judgment on each case; not take the rede as an outside law that has nothing to do with your life. instead it's an advice. if you believe in your heart that a roach, or meat for food, it's YOUR judgment to feel sinful for normal things, and has nothing to do with the wiccan advice.

[SnowCat]

I agree that the rede is not an absolute. I think a way to look at it, is that we have free will, but we also have the right to protect ourselves and our families, and to survive. If someone was threatening me or my family, I would use deadly force to protect us if necessary. If I had to hunt and kill my own food, I would either adapt or become a strict vegetarian.

I don't think those extremes would constitute a violation of the rede. It's possible that I would cause harm in the long run by not protecting myself. Many things have to be considered from an individual perspective.

Snow

[shatteredsouls]

As what Marie_Moonstone said, I think there's no way to harm none. Sometimes we save A and unintentionally hurt B. Our actions have repercussions. You were unaware and focused on saving the tree - that's good intentions.

[Firebird]

this is my creed:
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guess I'm feeling goofy today
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