Paganism = Feminism?

[Xiao Rong]

If we go back to biology, males and females are distinguished through their sex organs (that, I'll assume people will not argue since you either have certain equipment or not)

Sex and gender are two distinct things. You might be biologically born female but identify as male, or visa versa, or neither. Or both! Or some other gender. This is called gender diversity.

Now where there ARE beings in nature that reproduce asexually, they tend to be on what science would classify as "simple"; almost all of them are in the microscopic branch. When you become more complex, that is when you see the male/female dynamic.

This doesn't make asexual reproduction any less valuable. In addition, plants and other complex organisms are capable of reproducing asexually. In the instances of sexual reproduction, this just means some kind of genetic recombination, usually involving an egg or a sperm. Simply having a male/female role in biological reproduction does NOT necesarily mean that they fall into our human stereotypes of mother=nurturer, or father=breadwinner or whatever -- see the anglerfish, seahorse, and theemperor penguin.

But the pattern of observed behavior and tendencies that are more typical of a particular sex seems to hold pretty consistent, especially considering the change in country, social norms, etc. I believe that is where we derived the "definition" (if you will) of masculine and feminine energy.

Men and women may have some biological differences (how many and how great these differences are is still up for debate), but one should never underestimate the power of "nurture" and cultural upbringing. There is really more variation WITHIN a specific gender than BETWEEN genders.

My problem with trying to code characterists of humans as "pink" and "blue" is that it puts arbitrary limits on what any one gender can do (a.k.a. sexism). Historically, logic was associated with masculinity -- so is a logical woman more "mannish" and less "womannish"? Is a man who does the childcare in the family more "womanly" and less "manly?" What is even the point of trying say "men do this, women do that"? If one were to say, "Math is a boy thing, boys are good at math; I guess some girls can be good at math, but math is still mostly for boys, not girls" -- how is that not inherently limiting what both boys and girls can do? That's what I don't get about people who consider themselves "humanist" or "equalist" -- if they really believed in full equality of all genders, then why would they continue stereotyping some characteristics and abilities as only the purview of one gender or another (except for some people who are "exceptions" to their gender)? That's not "fixing" sexism, it's perpetuating sexism.

[Gray Pool]

Something that I really dislike: gender roles. I also dislike the whole: "Women are nurturing and kind, and men are aggressive and protective." Yes, yes, I know, that probably goes against my whole religion. But I think that women and men don't have set personalities that society and religion expects them to have. Take me as an example: I'm EXTREMELY aggressive, and probably have more testosterone that the average male. I'm also superprotective, and whilst I'm observant I have a tendency to spazz out. I also had anger issues. I don't believe in masculine or feminine. I find that offensive. So...yea. Rant over.

[MistressOfTheMoon]

I've not been on in a while, so I've missed a boat load of things here. I am pretty much done with this conversation, as there are others under my banner that speak in ways that are much more eloquent than I am at this point in time. This may seem a bit off topic, but I can't not bring this up.

Some might get furious by this next statement I am about to make, but I do believe you cannot call yourself a pagan if you shun either gender. Both feminine and masculine energies are present in nature, and their union is an important aspect in the regeneration of life. To shun either the feminine or masculine aspect, is ironic and contradicting to the pagan way of drawing inspiration from nature.

I am not furious at this statement Mistress Of The Moon, however it is something that pops up in a lot of things I've read. It is this, and only this, that makes me question my place on this path. The union of feminine and masculine energy is not something I'll ever experience in my life, unless it is forced upon me. I have no sexual attraction toward men whatsoever.

I refuse to believe myself something unnatural, I refuse to believe anything to be unnatural. But what am I to do?

A sexual preference to the same gender is not unnatural. The same behavior can be found in different species of animals. It is only among humans that we shun such behavior.

My statement merely refers to pagans who completely denounce the opposite sex, as necessary aspects of life. I do apologize if you misunderstood me, and perhaps the term "gender" was wrong here.

Blessings!

[Nightwatcher]

@Xiao Rong: I was simply trying to explain how I saw things. I was raised more traditionally; that is that there are distinguishing factors between the male and female sex. I was also taught that both are important and that both contribute wonderful things to the world (like mothers and fathers, lawyers, doctors, euntrapenueirs, psychologists, etc.)

While I understand the point you're trying to make - that labeling is too ridged and that are too many variables for them to be accurate - I have to respectfully disagree that it perpetuates sexism. What perpetuates sexism - to me - is being ignorant of the differences between the two sexes and not understanding the value both bring (by value, I mean insights, abilities, talents, etc.) Nature has been shown to be just as important (if not more so) then Nurture. We can continue to disagree and that is fine; the world is made up of different view points and it's silly to think otherwise. But I stand behind my view and shall respect your stance as well.

[Xiao Rong]

We can continue to disagree and that is fine; the world is made up of different view points and it's silly to think otherwise. But I stand behind my view and shall respect your stance as well.

Fair enough; I know that I'm probably not going to change your opinion. And if you feel empowered by traditional stereotypes, then that's cool. But I still feel obligated to counter your viewpoint because I feel like I have to at least try to give voice to the people whom I know who HAVE been hurt by the idea that "women do this and men do that." (many of whom are right here on this forum).

For example, the fact that men do not get paid paternity leave in the US (even though there are many men who would love to take care of their newborn children with their wives), because childrearing is what women do, and not what men do.

For example, the fact that girls still get told that they should be interested in looking pretty instead of math, which is why bright young women who are interested in science never wind up pursuing their dreams. (and I'm sure there are many men who would love to be kindergarten teachers or nurses but get told that's not what men do).

For example, the fact that girls still get taught that they are worthless if they are not virgins, but men are celebrated for their promiscuity, because that's just what men and women do.

For example, the fact that women are taught to protect themselves from rape, but men rarely get told not to rape, because "boys will be boys" and that's just what men do.

For example, the fact that women who are abused by their husbands are encouraged to stay with their husbands, because a wife's place is to be submissive to their husbands, even if that puts their life at risk. Woman obeys, man commands; that's just what men and women do.

For example, the fact that female politicians in the US are wildly underrepresented (18% of Congress, last I checked, and 0% of all US Presidents), and the ones who are in the public arena are regularly belittled and shamed or told to "iron my shirt", because women do the housework and men do the politics. That's just what men and women do.

For example, the fact that same sex marriage is still not fully recognized in the United States, because there are people who believe that loving men is not a thing that men should do, and loving women is not a thing that women should do ("Adam and Eve, not Adam and STEVE").

For example, the fact that trans* people still face a high risk of violence and murder because someone born with XY chromosomes should not be anything other than a man, nor someone born with XX chromosomes anything other than a woman.

You may not personally agree with every single example I just named (and literally, this is all the stuff I thought of off the top of my head; I could be here all day doing this), but they all come from the same principle: "women do this and men do that."

Again, if you find the image of woman being empathetic, nurturing, homemaking, mothering, etc. as empowering, fine. You do you. But please don't ignore the people (men and women) who DON'T find traditional stereotypes empowering, and indeed find them narrowing, constricting, harmful, and oppressive.

[Nightwatcher]

Believe as you wish. I am laying this topic to rest from my side. Blessed Be.

[Opal~Ink]

A rigid perpetuation of traditional gender roles can be oppressive to people who naturally don't follow what is traditionally expected of their gender. A boy who's bullied for being physically small and into traditionally "feminine" things, the girl who's told she's less of a girl, denying her gender identity because people believe she "acts like a boy". I've seen plenty of people treat others like crap because they just can't deal with how fluid gender expression really is, and that it's not all "this goes in this box, and in this box ONLY!"

[Xiao Rong]

A rigid perpetuation of traditional gender roles can be oppressive to people who naturally don't follow what is traditionally expected of their gender. A boy who's bullied for being physically small and into traditionally "feminine" things, the girl who's told she's less of a girl, denying her gender identity because people believe she "acts like a boy". I've seen plenty of people treat others like crap because they just can't deal with how fluid gender expression really is, and that it's not all "this goes in this box, and in this box ONLY!"

Right! This, exactly! (except you managed to say it much more concisely than me, haha)

[Gray Pool]

Perfectly said! I'm often accused of being lesbian because I hang out with boys. I am pro lgbt (or is it something else?), so don't think I'm trying to insult them. I don't care if they call me gay/lesbian, I just hate when they do it in an offensive way.

[Sakura Blossom]

So I'm an intersectional feminist, in that I believe there should not be a power structure based on gender. To expand a little more, women shouldn't be equal to men because men shouldn't be higher in the first place and also because saying "I want women to be equal to men" completely ignores the people who don't fit the gender binary. I also dislike the use of gender roles, such as using terms like "tomboy" or "girly girl" because it takes power away from the feminine aspect (girly girl is seen as shallow, but a tom boy is strong and brave. This can be summed up in 'one of the guys'). A good example of all I'm saying is the yin-yang because they aren't just side by side, they're a part of each other and no one is higher/better than the other.


So now having this backgound knowledge of what I believe with feminism, I'll explain what I do with my personal practice. I do not worship my deities. I work WITH them. I don't believe in putting power into worshiping and putting them up on a pedestal because while they are a higher power, I don't think they would be working with me if they didn't have something to gain either which doesn't make them "all powerful" anyways. Not to say, of course, that they don't have power because they CERTAINLY do. They are very strong beings, but while I gain from them, they gain from me. We work together, and we share in everything rather than one of us being higher than the other. I don't want to seem like I'm saying it's wrong to worship, because it's not at all. (: That's totally fine! Anyone's belief is okay, because everyone does things differently and that's what I love about paganism. It's SO VERSATILE and just because I do or believe something in one way, doesn't mean I'm going to go and tell you that you're wrong. I could disagree but that doesn't make me right either, as all of this is personal belief and faith based.

Also, I don't think if you're feminist you have limit yourself to just working with strictly females, given what I talked about above. I personally work with Loki (and those who are familiar with him, know he is gender fluid).

So to put a long story short, I don't think paganism = feminism, but I do think a lot of people who are pagan are feminist but not all.

[Xiao Rong]

Thanks, Sakura, for sharing about your feminist pagan practice!

So now having this backgound knowledge of what I believe with feminism, I'll explain what I do with my personal practice. I do not worship my deities. I work WITH them. I don't believe in putting power into worshiping and putting them up on a pedestal because while they are a higher power, I don't think they would be working with me if they didn't have something to gain either which doesn't make them "all powerful" anyways. Not to say, of course, that they don't have power because they CERTAINLY do. They are very strong beings, but while I gain from them, they gain from me. We work together, and we share in everything rather than one of us being higher than the other. I don't want to seem like I'm saying it's wrong to worship, because it's not at all. (: That's totally fine! Anyone's belief is okay, because everyone does things differently and that's what I love about paganism. It's SO VERSATILE and just because I do or believe something in one way, doesn't mean I'm going to go and tell you that you're wrong. I could disagree but that doesn't make me right either, as all of this is personal belief and faith based.

I've actually been musing on much the same thing about my relationships with deities over the past few days, and it's great to hear that I'm not alone thinking and feeling this way! I think one of the most powerful ideas that came out of feminist writing on spirituality were the concepts of "power over", "power within", and "power with", and you seem to be describing a relationship with the deities that's very "power with" -- mutually empowering and fulfilling, which is what I would like to incorporate within my practice as well.

[Sakura Blossom]

Oh I am glad I am not alone in my thinking! I never saw anyone doing it before so I'm glad I'm not alone either! (: I just feel like I want to work with them rather than worship and I have heard someone say before that they were told once that the gods didn't want to be worshiped. I don't go based on others words much as I like to get my own experiences, but I feel like it could very well be plausible depending on the god/goddess themselves. Haha. But who knows?

[SnowCat]

I really can't wrap my mind around actually worshiping a deity. I don't feel like I worship them any more than they worship me. I think it's more of a partnership. I was brought up with the idea of worship. It just doesn't really make sense to me.

Snow

[Sakura Blossom]

This is exactly what I do, Snow! And it ties into the example I shared above, about how I believe men and women shouldn't be separate, and instead should 'flow into' one another, like the yin-yang. I feel the same way for deities. (:

[Violet]

Bump for this thought-provoking thread on connections between paganism and feminism.

To my thinking, many of the influential twentieth-century Goddess-centered texts, including those of one of my favorite authors, Dion Fortune, appear to have clear connections to (so-called) "second wave" feminism. "Second wave" feminism, I have learned through readings in my feminist theory class (specifically Catharine MacKinnon and Linda Hirshman), became characterized as "sex-positive feminism," with the coming of the sexual revolution in the 1950s and 1960s, when sexual "prudery" was overturned. However, the traditional notions of sex were not completely overthrown along with the prudery, especially in heterosexual coupling. The fact is, "sex positive" attitudes led to some women and girls becoming even more vulnerable to sexual abuse and harassment after the sexual revolution.

One might argue that to define sex exclusively as that a (biological) man must put a penis in a (biological) woman's vagina is based on patriarchal norms of using women as possessions, and to ensure an heir. As has been noted in this thread, this imagery of penis-in-vagina is incorporated into Wiccan rites which, to my thinking, could present a dilemma for individuals that don't define sex that way for themselves, or don't wish to reify that exclusive definition of sex.

All I am really saying here is that I see the problem of sex and gender in many Wiccan or pagan texts reflecting the same problems of sex and gender in "second wave" feminism because of the inherent contradiction between "sex positive" feminism and the way that sex (as many people practiced it in the 50s and 60s) continued to widely reinforce traditional gender roles of dominance and submission. Now that more people are acknowledging the differences between gender and biological sex, as well as how individuals become gendered by their societies, I believe some twentieth-century pagan material is becoming difficult to work with.