Paganism = Feminism?

[Nightwatcher]

Off-topic: A friend told me I should be celibate to follow Hecate, a virgin goddess and was utterly shocked. There is power in sexual freedom ladies!

Oh definatly! Men and women are sexual and sensual beings, filled with love and life. I myself and trying to encourage myself to take charge of my sensuality instead of being afraid of it.

[MistressOfTheMoon]

Oh definatly! Men and women are sexual and sensual beings, filled with love and life. I myself and trying to encourage myself to take charge of my sensuality instead of being afraid of it.

I had a feeling you would share the same sentiment as well, since we both view virgin goddesses the same way I was editing my off topic note while you replied haha. I added some more in there.

Blessings!

[MistressOfTheMoon]

Hecate warns me about not taking any bullshit,not to depend on another for my happiness and know what I want out of it all...different approaches but both very important. I'm beginning to think that the more I interact with Hecate it could revolutionize my view of relationships on the whole. I don't think she advocates celibacy; I'm sure there are many happily married individuals who are devoteed to her and it has been a beneficial influence to their relationships...she *is* the minister to Persephone, wife of Hades and Queen of the Underworld, right?

Indeed! And Hecate herself is sometimes seen as a consort of Hermes. In one of Her myths, She lay her naked body on him. What else would they do? *Just* hug? Haha. Reference: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html#Hermes

P.S. If I were in your place, I would relate to Hecate in the same manner

[Xiao Rong]

Whelp, evidently a lot happened between when I went to bed and when I woke up. Rather than answer all of them, I just finished a post I've been writing for a while about my experiences as a Goddess feminism If you want to know what it's really like to follow an explicitly Feminist Pagan path (as opposed to the stereotype of what feminists are like), I invite you to read it. Thanks!

Xiao

[Opal~Ink]

Thanks Xiao Rong, you've said things that I would like to say, if I were more eloquent. It's sad that a few bad apples scare away so many people. Feminism has helped me so much. It has enabled me to let go much of the shame I've felt that's related to my femininity and sexuality, and It's made me more compassionate to women in general, and has helped me analyse my own toxic opinions about gender. It's really opened my eyes to a lot of the horrible crap that goes on around the world, and I wish I had been exposed to it earlier on. Will be reading your post you linked when I have more time on my hands.

For example, many of these feminists list reasons as to why feminism is needed, the biggest being citing a lack of respect from men. Yet I have the opposite problem; men always show me respect, calling me insightful, beautiful, intelligent... while fellow women call me a bitch, a drama *explicit* and other negative things.

Strange, I've had a mix of both good and bad experiences with both genders. it's usually worse with men though because a lot of the time it takes the form of dehumanization based on gender. I've experienced many forms of sexual harassment, I've been devalued for not fitting into the mold of the ideal "beautiful" woman starting from around the age of 12. I've heard sexual harassment and assault stories from friends that make me super angry, and four of my family members have experienced sexual assault. It always seems odd to me when I come across a woman who claims that she has never been ill treated by men in her life, must be nice.

[Nightwatcher]

@Opal~Ink: Well, it's nice and not so nice. I very much want to have lots of female friends, but many keep me at a distance. I honestly am not sure why, but I keep trying. It's a bit lonely. While with men, they do show me respect and treat me as a equal but that means they see me as a competitor, so it's a double-edged sword.

[Starwitch]

I wonder if our impressions of men vs women are based more on our relationships with our family members than we realize. In my family, my dad and brother were the irrational ones that had to have everything their way or they would punish us. The women were more level-headed and empathic.

My step-daughter has had the opposite experience with her mother (an abusive alcoholic) and her father (level-headed, nice guy) and she has joined the Christian religion, which of course is a huge disappointment for me.

[Nightwatcher]

I wonder if our impressions of men vs women are based more on our relationships with our family members than we realize.

It's possible. However, both my mom and dad treated me well (and respected one another) so it could also possibly influence how we see gender roles and how to treat the two genders?

[Xiao Rong]

While we're talking about getting along better with men and women, I was just responding to the stuff on [one-goddess-feminist-path-] about the subject, and thought it was also relevant here:

I think there is still the misconception that feminists are man-haters who want to live alone and never have anything to do with men, which is rubbish. I am a feminist, and it's never stopped me from having relationships with men (been dating Mr. Xiao for 5 years now!). Same with most feminists I know, either in person, or whose work I read online. I haven't actually personally met or heard of one single feminist who genuinely believes that men have no place in society (although I have met rape and domestic violence survivors who are understandably wary of getting into relationships with men, and even then I wouldn't call them "man-hating").

Actually, feminism has helped me have BETTER relationships with men, because it helped me love my body and myself more, taught me what a genuinely equitable partnership is like, recognizing each other for complex human beings rather than just stereotypes of our respective genders, etc. When I wasn't a feminist, I was more prone to believing the crap that really gets in the way of relationships and makes one or both of us miserable. You know, like, "men don't like talking, so don't bother them with your chitchat and never nag them ... you always have to look sexy for a man, or he'll stray ... men want to have sex all the time, so you better put out all the time ... Go with your man to his sport game, he'll appreciate your sacrifice ... Men feel threatened if you act smart in front of them ..." all that horsesh*t that really gets into the way of healthy communication and acknowledging each other as people who don't always fit the stereotype (Mr. Xiao would DIE before going to a sporting event, for example).

It's also helped me have better relationships with women, incidentally. As some people mentioned in the other thread, women are often stereotyped as being catty, obnoxious, vain, jealous, and bitchy. When I was a young girl, I tried to please my parents by being as tomboyish as possible, and I only had male friends because I thought my female classmates' interests were dumb and stupid. I wanted to be the "Cool Girl", who's interested in all the guy's hobbies and wasn't vain or bitchy like THOSE girls. Really what I was doing was trying to prove that I was seeking male attention at the expense of putting down other women. I had a lot of internalized sexism (as do most women, honestly) about what women can and can't be, and it wasn't until I was older that I realized that I had a lot of experiences in common with other women, and I just needed to get to know them better and to stop dismissing them out of hand as bitchy and catty and dramatic (because to me, feminism is the radical notion that women are people). So now I have a good mix of male and female friends, which is great. And while I still enjoy a lot of traditionally male interests (e.g. video games, superheroes), I can enjoy those hobbies now with my fellow women geeks instead of being threatened by them. Feminism helped me to stop discriminate against either gender, actually.

[Agarwaen]

I've not been on in a while, so I've missed a boat load of things here. I am pretty much done with this conversation, as there are others under my banner that speak in ways that are much more eloquent than I am at this point in time. This may seem a bit off topic, but I can't not bring this up.

Some might get furious by this next statement I am about to make, but I do believe you cannot call yourself a pagan if you shun either gender. Both feminine and masculine energies are present in nature, and their union is an important aspect in the regeneration of life. To shun either the feminine or masculine aspect, is ironic and contradicting to the pagan way of drawing inspiration from nature.

I am not furious at this statement Mistress Of The Moon, however it is something that pops up in a lot of things I've read. It is this, and only this, that makes me question my place on this path. The union of feminine and masculine energy is not something I'll ever experience in my life, unless it is forced upon me. I have no sexual attraction toward men whatsoever.

I refuse to believe myself something unnatural, I refuse to believe anything to be unnatural. But what am I to do?

[Xiao Rong]

Argaerwen, I'm very glad you brought it up. Truthfully, that's something I've also found problematic about Wicca and other forms of Paganism, even though I am a straight, cis-gender woman. Too often people think feminism is about "shunning" men, which is false (I am a feminist happily in a relationship with a man for 5+ years now), and that feminism is antithetical to the "union of masculine and feminine energies". My problem with that is that it places too strong a focus on specifically heterosexual intercourse as the only divine method of creation, and it erases the experiences of people who are not heterosexual and do not fit into the gender binary.

That's why in my form of Goddess feminism, it is important for me that:

1) Every one of us has the capacity to embody all possibilities of humanity, regardless of gender identity. Strong, weak, independent, dependent, nurturing, distant, kind, mean, smart, stupid, selfish, altruistic, introverted, extroverted, loving, hateful, emotional, logical -- we have all been these things at one time or another. I identify as a woman, but since I am inherently capable of all of these things, I don't intrinsically need a man, specifically, to "balance me out". My partner and I each bring a different subset of strengths, weaknesses, hobbies, interests, needs, and gifts to our relationship, but they are not limited or defined by our gender. As I talk about in my post about Goddess feminism, I am interested in breaking down dualisms entirely, not recreating them.

2) So in my Goddess symbolism, I try to use a set of symbols that demonstrate the many ways in which creation can happen aside from heterosexual union, which, while important, is certainly not the only one. So I like to employ metaphors such as weaving, throwing a pot, etc. in my practice that are accessible by people of either gender. In the Charge of the Goddess, there's a line that says, "All acts of love and joy are My rituals", and I see that as an affirmation of any kind of consensual union (between people of any gender) as sacred.

You're also not the only one who has ever wondered about this subject. Here are a few links that I'd recommend:

One Gay Man's Response to Gender Essentialism in Paganism

Gender Essentialism is a Problem, Pagans

G is for Gender Essentialism

Oh, My Pop Culture Goddess: Transgender Issues in Wicca and Paganism

H is for Heterosexism and Heteronormativity

Philadelphia Pagan: Regarding Sexual Orientation and Identity in Wicca

Pagan Spiritual Paths and Men Who Love Men

[Nightwatcher]

I've not been on in a while, so I've missed a boat load of things here. I am pretty much done with this conversation, as there are others under my banner that speak in ways that are much more eloquent than I am at this point in time. This may seem a bit off topic, but I can't not bring this up.

Some might get furious by this next statement I am about to make, but I do believe you cannot call yourself a pagan if you shun either gender. Both feminine and masculine energies are present in nature, and their union is an important aspect in the regeneration of life. To shun either the feminine or masculine aspect, is ironic and contradicting to the pagan way of drawing inspiration from nature.

I am not furious at this statement Mistress Of The Moon, however it is something that pops up in a lot of things I've read. It is this, and only this, that makes me question my place on this path. The union of feminine and masculine energy is not something I'll ever experience in my life, unless it is forced upon me. I have no sexual attraction toward men whatsoever.

I refuse to believe myself something unnatural, I refuse to believe anything to be unnatural. But what am I to do?

I think what Mistress Of The Moon meant was the energies associated with male and female, not necessarily anything to do with sexuality. Like... I'll use myself as an example. I have many masculine tendencies; I'm aggressive, confrontational. But I am also empathetic and observant, which are more feminine. While I have yet to find a male mate, I still feel the masculine and feminine energies in myself and others. So I don't think she/he means it in a sexual way.

[valerian moon]

I dont think you have to, after all, you can basically follow whatever your beliefs are as long as it isn't harmful.
I, personally, am a feminist, and I definitely see the feminist influences, and I think everyone should be a feminist. But in my opinion, you don't HAVE to be anything.

[Agarwaen]

Thank you, Xiao Rong, for the many links. I shall read them and ponder awhile.

Nightwatcher, I was not inferring that Mistress Of The Moon was referencing sex when they mentioned binary energies, I did mention that I was going off topic. What I meant it that the greatest union of masculine and feminine is indeed a sexual union, that which creates new life. It is the very basis of the dualism of our path. It is something I am just now beginning to question, being fairly new in my craft. I simply wanted to see what everyone else thought.

I do like what characteristics you attribute to each engendered energy, though. The aggressive and confrontational to the masculine and the empathetic and observant to the feminine. What if it is the opposite? What if the feminine is the more aggressive, while the masculine is more empathetic? And the reason most men are more aggressive than women (using crime statistics as an argumentative basis, I don't believe we should label any gender or sex as being set with any characteristics) is because they are imbued with feminine energy to balance out their current masculine form? Do creative energies even need a gender? What if they just Are? Things reproduce asexually after all...

I am beginning to think (yes, just from thinking out this post, I'm a mess, I know) that the energies of existence and creation just Are. We give them the shape of masculine and feminine because they are so ambiguous that we don't even know what they are! It's an easy way of thinking of them. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, rather than the Gods shaping us, they are shaped by us. Like how the Romans took the Greek Gods and shifted them slightly to match their own culture... I guess...

I've trailed to the end of my thoughts... I've lost my purpose of them. Bother.
Oh, try not to think too much on gender, I suppose...
We are all simply people. People who deserve to be treated like people.

[Nightwatcher]

Well, while you bring up a point ("We give them the shape of masculine and feminine because they are so ambiguous that we don't even know what they are!") I also feel like the labels/assumptions are based off of observed patterns. I'll break it down as best I can so my thought process isn't a jumble. ^^;

If we go back to biology, males and females are distinguished through their sex organs (that, I'll assume people will not argue since you either have certain equipment or not). Now where there ARE beings in nature that reproduce asexually, they tend to be on what science would classify as "simple"; almost all of them are in the microscopic branch. When you become more complex, that is when you see the male/female dynamic.

Now, from the biologically defined male/female duo (I'm not even going to touch gender; that is a separate thing) over time people see tendencies within people of the same sex. Now, there is obviously exceptions, some show these tendencies at a lesser extent then others, etc. But the pattern of observed behavior and tendencies that are more typical of a particular sex seems to hold pretty consistent, especially considering the change in country, social norms, etc. I believe that is where we derived the "definition" (if you will) of masculine and feminine energy.

Now as I said before, you take any person and they will have energies of both within them (which makes sense since we are born of the sexual union between a man and woman). But the above is why I believe we identify certain traits with the label masculine and feminine. I hope it helped explain my thoughts to you Agarwaen.