Not so black and white

[bornoftheflame]

Why do some magickal traditions work better for some than it does for others? The answer is because magickal experiences are purely individualistic. There is no "correct way", only what feels right for you (but of course you should practice safety when, for example, working with fire or sharp objects.) Dedication rites are good and pantheons are fine but magick always starts from within. The desire for change, the will to make something happen. That's what magick is. You can't "cast a spell" to attract money into your life then sit on your couch and expect to get rich. Not in this world, not in reality. Doing is magick and magick is doing. Herbs, symbols, chants, tools: all things meant to enhance and focus will and desire. It's the union between practitioner and ritual tools that creates results. The truth is there is no "magickal energy", no mysterious force causing things to happen. It's you. You're more in control of your reality than anything else. What you do now directly and intimately affects what happens next. The law of cause and effect. You've probably heard that "everything happens for a reason". Physicists call that Newton's third law of quantum mechanics. Occult practitioners call it witchcraft and attribute it to the things that happen beyond our awareness. The Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

[loona wynd]

This is very true. I know what works for me will not work for other people. I know that all of us need to find our own magical paths and practices. I share my spells and rituals hoping that they will work for some one as well as they worked for me and that they may be able to create their own ritual or spell from that base.

[Kat]

I don't share my spells or rituals coz these are unique for each i think. it's THEIR intend that makes it happen and not anybody else's. about gods I'm too lienient coz I believe the gods are also unique and each' experience is like no others'. so yes i agree that gods are the creation of man. but not that the occult is the equivalent of technology. if u go to an occult shop u find the exact same things u find if u go to a technology shop?

[loona wynd]

I don't share my spells or rituals coz these are unique for each i think. it's THEIR intend that makes it happen and not anybody else's.

That doesn't mean you can't still make a spell written by some one else useful for you or work for you. Since Magic is the intent you set out, if the components and actions of a spell make sense to you than the spell will work for you. If people didn't publish the spells they have written, others wouldn't have spells to use as inspiration.

That is the other thing about rituals and magic. In the end it is always best to write and cast your own spells. However there are times when we don't know exactly what we want to do for s situation. So I will in these times look up spells related to the need at hand and adapt them for myself.

about gods I'm too lienient coz I believe the gods are also unique and each' experience is like no others'. so yes i agree that gods are the creation of man.

You believe that men created Gods? I believe that men gave names to the forces that were already out there. That doesn't mean that we created the gods though. We just gave an identity to the various forces out there making them easier to relate to. Its easier to relate to a name than it is simply an idea or concept. Again that does not mean we created them

but not that the occult is the equivalent of technology. if u go to an occult shop u find the exact same things u find if u go to a technology shop?

I dont understand where you got this from the OP. Occult supply stores provide the means that we can use to enhance our intents and to enhance the energy raised during spells and rituals.

[Kat]

The Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

that's where I got it loona.
u re right about the spells adjusting and the gods. I meant to say I wouldn't impose my belief to someone that doesn't believe in any force by any name. maybe I can't put it in words. how u call it? convertin an atheist?

[loona wynd]

The Gods are creations of man, the occult equivalent of technology.

that's where I got it loona.

In that case I understand what the OP is saying but I don't agree with it. Here the OP basically means that there are people who use the right god for the right spell. Basically in healing call on a God or spirit of healing. For money and wealth call on Gods related to that field. I don't agree with this as I don't involve the Gods in my magic. I don't believe in using Gods in this sense. Gods for me are to be worshiped and not just called upon for any reason. They are powerful beings that deserve respect

u re right about the spells adjusting

I was thinking about starting a thread or series of threads for reworking spells for personal use. Its a project I have run before elsewhere with great succsess. Through this project I was able to find and really develop what are my own tastes and style of spells.

and the gods.

The divine forces are mysteries. While we can fully experience and know the Gods in ritual through invocations and evocations, in the end they as a being are far beyond our ability to comprehend. We do our best through myths and symbols to relate to the mystery forces behind each deity, but in the end all divine beings are really fully beyond our comprehension. By using names and mythology from cultures we can relate to specific divine energetic forces and gain access to those mysteries. Does that make sense?

I meant to say I wouldn't impose my belief to someone that doesn't believe in any force by any name.

How can one practice witchcraft and work magic without beliving in a force of some kind, even if its just the natural forces of energy?

maybe I can't put it in words. how u call it? convertin an atheist?

I can understand that. There are atheiste witches though. They may not believe in divine forces, but acknowledge other spiritual forces. There is a good thread in the God and Goddess forum about:Paganism when there are no Gods.

[loona wynd]

I just want to say I don't like blending too much science into magick.

Then you wouldn't agree with most of my philosophy and base. I come from a tradition that teaches magic and witchcraft as sciences, philosophies, and religions. There are some scientific theories that parallel magical and spiritual thoughts. Combining the two with psychology provides a stronger base for understanding the universe. At least it does in my experience.

It's nice that it can help you understand, but bees are clearly flying around. In case you didn't know, science says bees can't fly.

I've never seen science say Bees can't fly...

[loona wynd]

It's something to do with aerodynamics, I learned it in high school. It has also been included in the film bee movie. I suppose you could also say it's along the lines of the world once being flat, etc.

I'm thinking quantum physics and astrophysics. Along the lines of string theory and vibrational applications. How everything is really empty space but the atoms vibrate at a rate high enough that it creates a solid surface. That is the science that can apply to magic.

[loona wynd]

Agreed. Most other science is just dumb lol

Add psychology and mind based philosophies and you have my basic science for magic.

[Falcon_Heart27]

Agreed. Most other science is just dumb lol

Ouch, that hurt my heart.
Sure, there are some crazy theories out there for various things, but those people aren't the actual scholars and scientists. I love *legitimate* science because it gives me ANSWERS. The hypotheses are able to be backed up by facts, and are able to be recreated in experiments.

I personally like blending science with magic because I am an intellectually driven human being. I like knowing HOW things happen and WHY. Most of my "magic" is plant healing, which can be broken down into chemical reactions between the plants themselves and the body they are tending to. Incantations carry power with them, sure, but that power rooted firmly in psychology. For example, if someone does a courage spell, he or she is probably going to consciously act more courageous just because he or she thinks that some guiding force (magic) is causing them to have a little more backbone. Humans have been that way forever it seems... They want to look towards a guiding external force. That's why religion has been around since, well, almost as long as people. Once the earliest people realized that there were things happening in the world that they couldn't explain (since they weren't scientifically advanced, it was the some of the simple things- weather, etc.), they made up stories about powerful forces that caused the events to happen.

Oh my gosh, I'm rambling. Sorry, everyone. End rant.

[Kat]

FalconHeart 27 some things science can't yet explain; through the years it becomes more advanced. But what does science have to do with faith? in every religion people believe without hard proof. I think believing has to do with their understanding of the surroundings and how evolved that understanding is. what does this have to do with science? I don't think everyday people know anything about science tho each BELIEVES in a religion.

[loona wynd]

Agreed. Most other science is just dumb lol

Ouch, that hurt my heart.

What not liking science? Not every one can appreciate science.

Sure, there are some crazy theories out there for various things, but those people aren't the actual scholars and scientists.

Quantum physicists aren't scientists? Astro physicists aren't scientists? What do you define as a scholar as well? I mean philosophers who wrote the book the Kyballion are scholars having studied spiritual philosophy and created their own text and understanding. The book the Kyballion outlines philosophical magical laws that when tested and applied can create magical sciences.

Science and philosophy have always been tied together. The sciences as we know them did evolve out of magical practices like herbal magic and herbal healing as well as alchemy. When you look at the history and development of science you see how they are actually united. There will always be a connection. Though the approaches to the applications are different.

I love *legitimate* science because it gives me ANSWERS. The hypotheses are able to be backed up by facts, and are able to be recreated in experiments.

You can do that with philosophical experiments and magical experiments as well. Where do you think the bases for chemistry came from? Alchemy. You can apply the scientific method to philosophies and if recorded properly including all actions and observations as well as step by step processes of the exercises/experiments you can get repeated results. Why else do they ask us in books on magic to repeat exercises over and over again? To gain repeated results and perhaps even further results based on previous results.

I personally like blending science with magic because I am an intellectually driven human being. I like knowing HOW things happen and WHY. Most of my "magic" is plant healing, which can be broken down into chemical reactions between the plants themselves and the body they are tending to.

Thats Chemistry and Biology which can be traced to Alchemy and folk magic healing work with herbal applications. Many folk recipes for cough syrups, fever breakers, pain relieving salves actually formed the basis for many of the chemical products we have today, just not being natural. Aspirin for example came about as a result of examining the properties of Willow bark and its applications to reducing fevers and pain. Other herbs and modern medicines can be traced to these similar processes.

Incantations carry power with them, sure, but that power rooted firmly in psychology. For example, if someone does a courage spell, he or she is probably going to consciously act more courageous just because he or she thinks that some guiding force (magic) is causing them to have a little more backbone.

If you study psychology you can see the power the mind has over reality. Many psychology 101 courses have exercises in using and working with Positive Affirmations to illustrate this power. The Kyballion outlines how there is a mystical and spiritual philosophy that explains this. Psychology and philosophy really have a lot in common when it comes to the study of the Occult.

Even equating magic to psychology isn't always enough. Psychology can't really define exactly what the mind is, but it is the study of the mind. That is why there are so many varied different schools of thought. When you apply psychology with external philosophies including aspects of dualism suddenly magic makes sense and suddenly the reasons behind quantum sciences also make sense.

Humans have been that way forever it seems... They want to look towards a guiding external force. That's why religion has been around since, well, almost as long as people. Once the earliest people realized that there were things happening in the world that they couldn't explain (since they weren't scientifically advanced, it was the some of the simple things- weather, etc.), they made up stories about powerful forces that caused the events to happen.

Thats putting it too simply. Early societies had a very dualistic view of the world. They knew that plants healed and protected because of the physical things they did. However they understood that this physical application was because of a spiritual force in each thing. Animisim was the first spiritual experience of humanity. Animisim is also a large part of most magical schools of thought relating the spirit to the energetic forces of plants and crystals used in spell work.

They experienced these forces in life. As peoples spiritual realities evolved the traditions and practices evolved as well. Soon there were overruling spirits of water and fire as well as healing and protection. Those spirits were the first Gods. As cultures moved apart mythologies and lore around those Gods changed and different names were given as different cultures began to experience these forces and Gods in different ways depending on where they settled. Over time unique personalities for the various multitude of Gods in the different pantheons created unique beings.

The book the Kyballion basically explains this process through the various principles of the universe and the nature of reality. The Kyballion provides an excellent philosophical outline and resource for magical theory. While I don't agree with all of the tenets in the philosophy, the overall ideas and concepts behind it do provide a good outline for magic.

Oh my gosh, I'm rambling. Sorry, everyone. End rant.

Psychology and quantum theory provide a lot of my explanation for why magic is effective. That being said I still have experienced magic as a force that is really beyond our understanding and processing. Magic is like the divine a mystery.

Science has not yet defined what caused the big bang and what forces actually drive changes. We understand that everything comes from dead stars through astrophysics and quantum science. We still don't know exactly what forces out there actually cause the universe to expand and cause the constant cycles of creation and destruction that exist within our universe.

Gods and spirits provide an understanding of this force. There is no reason why a person can't approach both religion and science from the same perspective. They are each tools for us to explain and understand the world and the universe around us. One relates to more personal sides and experiences with these hidden forces and the other explains more general experiences.

Its also important to remember that everything in science is also a theory. While there are experiments that have proven for example the existence of the force of gravity, the concept behind what gravity is remains a theory. Quantum physics has shown additional theories that gravity was once part of a larger force which we are still trying to put together. Thus gravity while it has evidence to prove that it's here remains a theory. Evidence and further scientific studies as we begin to understand quantum physics, vibrational rates and much more deeper may one day prove that gravity isn't real at least not as we currently understand it.

By applying the scientific method to my spiritual studies I can gain personal evidence of the existence of spiritual forces like magic as well as energetic forces. By testing theories and exploring exercises outlined in magical texts I gain personal experience and personal verification about these forces. I can prove through my experiences and my records of some of these experiences that these forces are real.

This is why some authors and schools can teach magic as a philosophy and a science. There are scientific theories and magical theories that when outlined next to each other are parallels. Magic is a spiritual science though. Its one that is going to be personal and thus have non falsifiable results.

[Falcon_Heart27]

Agreed. Most other science is just dumb lol

Ouch, that hurt my heart.

What not liking science? Not every one can appreciate science.

Sure, there are some crazy theories out there for various things, but those people aren't the actual scholars and scientists.

Quantum physicists aren't scientists? Astro physicists aren't scientists? What do you define as a scholar as well? I mean philosophers who wrote the book the Kyballion are scholars having studied spiritual philosophy and created their own text and understanding. The book the Kyballion outlines philosophical magical laws that when tested and applied can create magical sciences.

Science and philosophy have always been tied together. The sciences as we know them did evolve out of magical practices like herbal magic and herbal healing as well as alchemy. When you look at the history and development of science you see how they are actually united. There will always be a connection. Though the approaches to the applications are different.

I love *legitimate* science because it gives me ANSWERS. The hypotheses are able to be backed up by facts, and are able to be recreated in experiments.

You can do that with philosophical experiments and magical experiments as well. Where do you think the bases for chemistry came from? Alchemy. You can apply the scientific method to philosophies and if recorded properly including all actions and observations as well as step by step processes of the exercises/experiments you can get repeated results. Why else do they ask us in books on magic to repeat exercises over and over again? To gain repeated results and perhaps even further results based on previous results.

I personally like blending science with magic because I am an intellectually driven human being. I like knowing HOW things happen and WHY. Most of my "magic" is plant healing, which can be broken down into chemical reactions between the plants themselves and the body they are tending to.

Thats Chemistry and Biology which can be traced to Alchemy and folk magic healing work with herbal applications. Many folk recipes for cough syrups, fever breakers, pain relieving salves actually formed the basis for many of the chemical products we have today, just not being natural. Aspirin for example came about as a result of examining the properties of Willow bark and its applications to reducing fevers and pain. Other herbs and modern medicines can be traced to these similar processes.

Incantations carry power with them, sure, but that power rooted firmly in psychology. For example, if someone does a courage spell, he or she is probably going to consciously act more courageous just because he or she thinks that some guiding force (magic) is causing them to have a little more backbone.

If you study psychology you can see the power the mind has over reality. Many psychology 101 courses have exercises in using and working with Positive Affirmations to illustrate this power. The Kyballion outlines how there is a mystical and spiritual philosophy that explains this. Psychology and philosophy really have a lot in common when it comes to the study of the Occult.

Even equating magic to psychology isn't always enough. Psychology can't really define exactly what the mind is, but it is the study of the mind. That is why there are so many varied different schools of thought. When you apply psychology with external philosophies including aspects of dualism suddenly magic makes sense and suddenly the reasons behind quantum sciences also make sense.

Humans have been that way forever it seems... They want to look towards a guiding external force. That's why religion has been around since, well, almost as long as people. Once the earliest people realized that there were things happening in the world that they couldn't explain (since they weren't scientifically advanced, it was the some of the simple things- weather, etc.), they made up stories about powerful forces that caused the events to happen.

Thats putting it too simply. Early societies had a very dualistic view of the world. They knew that plants healed and protected because of the physical things they did. However they understood that this physical application was because of a spiritual force in each thing. Animisim was the first spiritual experience of humanity. Animisim is also a large part of most magical schools of thought relating the spirit to the energetic forces of plants and crystals used in spell work.

They experienced these forces in life. As peoples spiritual realities evolved the traditions and practices evolved as well. Soon there were overruling spirits of water and fire as well as healing and protection. Those spirits were the first Gods. As cultures moved apart mythologies and lore around those Gods changed and different names were given as different cultures began to experience these forces and Gods in different ways depending on where they settled. Over time unique personalities for the various multitude of Gods in the different pantheons created unique beings.

The book the Kyballion basically explains this process through the various principles of the universe and the nature of reality. The Kyballion provides an excellent philosophical outline and resource for magical theory. While I don't agree with all of the tenets in the philosophy, the overall ideas and concepts behind it do provide a good outline for magic.

Oh my gosh, I'm rambling. Sorry, everyone. End rant.

Psychology and quantum theory provide a lot of my explanation for why magic is effective. That being said I still have experienced magic as a force that is really beyond our understanding and processing. Magic is like the divine a mystery.

Science has not yet defined what caused the big bang and what forces actually drive changes. We understand that everything comes from dead stars through astrophysics and quantum science. We still don't know exactly what forces out there actually cause the universe to expand and cause the constant cycles of creation and destruction that exist within our universe.

Gods and spirits provide an understanding of this force. There is no reason why a person can't approach both religion and science from the same perspective. They are each tools for us to explain and understand the world and the universe around us. One relates to more personal sides and experiences with these hidden forces and the other explains more general experiences.

Its also important to remember that everything in science is also a theory. While there are experiments that have proven for example the existence of the force of gravity, the concept behind what gravity is remains a theory. Quantum physics has shown additional theories that gravity was once part of a larger force which we are still trying to put together. Thus gravity while it has evidence to prove that it's here remains a theory. Evidence and further scientific studies as we begin to understand quantum physics, vibrational rates and much more deeper may one day prove that gravity isn't real at least not as we currently understand it.

By applying the scientific method to my spiritual studies I can gain personal evidence of the existence of spiritual forces like magic as well as energetic forces. By testing theories and exploring exercises outlined in magical texts I gain personal experience and personal verification about these forces. I can prove through my experiences and my records of some of these experiences that these forces are real.

This is why some authors and schools can teach magic as a philosophy and a science. There are scientific theories and magical theories that when outlined next to each other are parallels. Magic is a spiritual science though. Its one that is going to be personal and thus have non falsifiable results.

Yeah, I understand and agree with most if not all of what you're saying. Did I come off a littl

[Falcon_Heart27]

*groan* it sent before I finished typing.
As I was saying, did I come off as a little mean in my first post? So sorry if I did. I guess I just saw someone not able to appreciate science and I jumped on it a bit. I do understand and agree with a lot of what you're saying, and share many of those beliefs. And when I was referring to "legitimate science", I didn't mean to dis any areas of study or theories. My train of thought immediately jumped over to some crazy conspiracy theories that claim to be backed up by science (and that have nothing to do with any of this) and I guess that I didn't illustrate that in my post.
Again, sorry if I offended anyone... Gah, this is why I never share my opinions with anyone. I always mis-word it somehow, wrongly explain my ideas, and end up feeling altogether stupid or mean.

[loona wynd]

Yeah, I understand and agree with most if not all of what you're saying. Did I come off a little mean in my first post?

Not at all. I was just really asking for clarification. I was also continuing the discussion and stating where my thoughts and processes come from. I come from a tradition that teaches magic as a science, a philosophy, and as a spiritual practice. So I like to outline where they overlap.

So sorry if I did. I guess I just saw someone not able to appreciate science and I jumped on it a bit.

Unfortunatly I do understand why some people who work magic and spiritual practices don't accept all of science or at least dont bother with more than they need to learn in school. The world we live in is a scientific "prove it" type of world. So when you bring science into the topic of magic many times people will fight the idea that science and magic can co-exist in harmony and practice.

This is especially true considering that the scientific theories and fields of study that are related to magic are often difficult to understand and comprehend. I understand and comprehend them because I think obscurely. I also always try to find connections between things. I've never felt that you had to have science or magic. I've always believed that they could and should coexist. Einstein even had a quote about science and religion together.

I do understand and agree with a lot of what you're saying, and share many of those beliefs.

Not many do. I'm used to defending the views of magic and science existing in harmony and being two sides of the same coin.

And when I was referring to "legitimate science", I didn't mean to dis any areas of study or theories. My train of thought immediately jumped over to some crazy conspiracy theories that claim to be backed up by science (and that have nothing to do with any of this) and I guess that I didn't illustrate that in my post.

When you post something like that it makes me wonder what you are thinking. This is why I asked for clarification about scientists, scientific fields, and what you meant by scholars.

I should also be clear. That while I believe that science supports magical theory and that there are parallels I am no way saying that science proves magic. Its merely another theory out there on how magic works. Its not even really one theory but a set of theories and philosophies that when combined can show some scientific concepts. Science where it is now can not prove magic works. Magic is according to science non falsifiable. That doesn't mean there aren't parallels. That is what I am getting at more than anything.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone... Gah, this is why I never share my opinions with anyone. I always mis-word it somehow, wrongly explain my ideas, and end up feeling altogether stupid or mean.

You weren't coming across as stupid or mean. I just wanted clarification. My thoughts occasionally get muddled when I post online. So its natural and ok to ask for clarification if something doesn't make sense or if you are unsure exactly what some one is saying.