Clockwork Universe and Theory

[Klia]

The Clockwork Theory / Universe is talked about throughout religion and science. It was founded, if not famed by Isaac Newton. Many Deists believe in this topic.

Here's a little blurb about it if you're unsure what it is:
"A "clockwork universe" can be thought of as being a clock wound up by God and ticking along, as a perfect machine, with its gears governed by the laws of physics.

What sets this theory apart from others is the idea that God's only contribution to the universe was to set everything in motion, and from there the laws of science took hold and have governed every sequence of events since that time. This idea was very popular in the Enlightenment, when scientists realized that Newton's laws of motion, including the law of universal gravitation, could explain the behavior of the solar system.

A notable exclusion from this theory though is free will, since all things have already been set in motion and are just parts of a predictable machine. Newton feared that this notion of "everything is predetermined" would lead to atheism."

So my question for you all is, do you believe that the God and Goddess created the universe and all things in it (humans, plants, weather, animals, etc) and just let it go as is? Or do you believe they interact in your life daily? Do you feel that they guide you day by day, or experience by experience? Do you believe they more so "watch" you and see how you handle things on your own?

This topic also can discuss whether or not people are fated, whether they are destined for something in life, destined for a specific life (reincarnation), destined to be a mom, be a lawyer, etc. Many faiths adopt this but I personally feel we are all set up to create our own life with our own experiences creating the next experience (Newton's 3rd law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). I also believe that the Gods may not know exactly how we will turn out or have our lives strategically planned out.

Questions, Comments, Concerns? =)

[Echo_of_shadows]

"A "clockwork universe" can be thought of as being a clock wound up by God and ticking along, as a perfect machine, with its gears governed by the laws of physics.

What sets this theory apart from others is the idea that God's only contribution to the universe was to set everything in motion, and from there the laws of science took hold and have governed every sequence of events since that time. This idea was very popular in the Enlightenment, when scientists realized that Newton's laws of motion, including the law of universal gravitation, could explain the behavior of the solar system.

A notable exclusion from this theory though is free will, since all things have already been set in motion and are just parts of a predictable machine. Newton feared that this notion of "everything is predetermined" would lead to atheism."

I haven't heard of that before. It's a very interesting theory. Thanks for sharing it, Klia. It's a good topic for roping my boyfriend in for a "how the universe works" conversation.
My belief is that we get to have at least some say in what we're going to do with our lives before we get here. It's kind of like the Divine hands us a list of mandatory courses, but we get to pick the electives. We can't learn and do everything in a single lifetime since we don't live extraordinarily long lives, and to try and do everything in our short lifespans, we'd likely become jacks of all trades and maters of none. I believe that we can learn and do everything over a course of several lifetimes.
My belief is that spirit guides and the like are here to try and keep us going in the right direction while allowing us free will. For example, they'll guide us to nurture a love of cooking, but they're not going to beat us over the head if we decide against a culinary career.
I'm not too keen on the idea that everything is predetermined.
I believe that the gods are with us to an extent. I think they want us to succeed in our life plans, but they don't throw the controller when we don't ask "how high?" when they press the jump button.

[Klia]

It is a good and deep conversation starter. Glad I could help ha.

I liked your example of the love of cooking vs. making it a career. Perhaps they give us qualities and we decide how to go about them. There is no wrong way and they don't look at us and say "ugh no! you're supposed to do this instead." I just wonder how in depth they go when creating us and our many lives. We are on the Earth for such a short amount of time per life, so it is hard to get everything done and know when we are done. Which makes me wonder, if we did everything on list #1, is there a list #2, #68, etc. Do we live a certain amount of lives and then go to Summerland after we've completed everything? Or is there always something to know/do? Can we surpass a limit, if there is one? I feel like there's only so much we can do in different lifetimes.

[Garnetsun]

Klia, once again starting very interesting conversation !

It quite echoes with me, since we study this kind of life creation/existence belief in philosophy class.
Faithful people -strongly into religion- may believe that God created the universe with a finality, the end of times. Some may belive Earth and all its inhabitants were created the way we are right now, but science proved that evolution happened, but religious people still deny Darwin's theory.
But it is often said that science and religion are two ways to truth and reality. Truth may only be discovered -Newton didn't invent the gravitation law, only discovered it-.
By that, I indeed believe that the universe -maybe not its entirety since we haven't seen it whole yet, we don't know if theire is even an end to it- was created; or came out from a Void. The God and Goddess came out of it; that's why they are complementing each other, because they represent a whole that came out of a Nothingness.
And then, creation time !
-to be short ah-
There on, I believe that while they may take actions on what's happening -evolution, or even human history- there isn't fate in its mythological meaning. While I believe we are "made" to do something, we might not be able to reach this goal, and instead discover ourselves a new way, maybe a lesser goal that help us go through this life. Some might not agree, if you don't believe in reincarnation. A single life is nothing in front of every life we will and have go through; so this "fate" is more of a... lifetime goal that our soul aspire to, and through lives and obstacles, we might reach it.

The love of cooking vs make a career out of it is a good exemple. Our "fate" might be to become a great chef, but in this life (and in others) it might just be there as a passion. Because we are entitled to discover our life as we want it too : make mistakes, hate things we loved etc especially given the short amount of time we spend in a life; fulfilling a fated life in one go seems... mythological. or very lucky.
So yes, maybe there are a few lists made for us, and we have to go through this ahaha. It what makes us closer to ourselves, and to the Deity at the same time for me. To be truer and fuller.

If the clock finish its round, you can always rewind it, if you haven't enjoyed each hour properly.

[Echo_of_shadows]

Which makes me wonder, if we did everything on list #1, is there a list #2, #68, etc.

I like to think so.

Do we live a certain amount of lives and then go to Summerland after we've completed everything?

I see the Summerland as both a vacation spot and an eternal resting spot. I believe we get time off between lives to rest, recharge and reunite with our loved ones. Then once we're done we can stay there as long as we want.

Or is there always something to know/do?

I think the option to go do something new after you've done it all is up to the individual. Let's say that someone did and learned everything one hundred years ago. There's so many technological advances now that didn't exist back then. It should be up to that individual if they want to come back to learn how to use things like the internet and cellphones. For some, that might be exciting, but perhaps others would be happy knowing how to communicate with just plain old pen and paper.

If the clock finish its round, you can always rewind it, if you haven't enjoyed each hour properly.

Nicely said.

[Lillady]

So my question for you all is, do you believe that the God and Goddess created the universe and all things in it (humans, plants, weather, animals, etc) and just let it go as is? Or do you believe they interact in your life daily? Do you feel that they guide you day by day, or experience by experience? Do you believe they more so "watch" you and see how you handle things on your own?

This topic also can discuss whether or not people are fated, whether they are destined for something in life, destined for a specific life (reincarnation), destined to be a mom, be a lawyer, etc. Many faiths adopt this but I personally feel we are all set up to create our own life with our own experiences creating the next experience (Newton's 3rd law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). I also believe that the Gods may not know exactly how we will turn out or have our lives strategically planned out.

Questions, Comments, Concerns? =)

As far as who created the universe there are so many theories I am unsure really. A big part of me believes that they did create it then we were placed here, but seeing as that is the normal way of thinking another part of me thinks what if. I do however believe that when your destiny is predetermined, but thanks to magick that can be changed in certain aspects. Hence people who survive death when they should have actually died. I feel the Gods and Goddesses working in my life daily. Some days more than others but I think you learn on different levels by experience. The test we are given are simply to see how much you can handle. We can change what we want to be at any given time. I always felt I was destined to be a nurse but after going after it for so long eventually gave up. Now I am just a techinical support specialist for ATT but Im good with that, I feel like I was meant to be here and couldnt imagine being a nurse now.

[Klia]

Klia, once again starting very interesting conversation !

Thank you *curtsies* Luckily I have you to talk deeply with, and the rest of you guys

But it is often said that science and religion are two ways to truth and reality. Truth may only be discovered -Newton didn't invent the gravitation law, only discovered it-.

This still makes me question. I am all for science, but the more science, personally, the more it battles religion of any sorts. If the Earth and us was created through the Big Bang and not a deity (not proven in science) then what is the point of being here? It is depressing to think that we just live and die, that nothing comes from it and that is that. There is so many unknowns in science and science people would say there is so much unknown in religion.

By that, I indeed believe that the universe -maybe not its entirety since we haven't seen it whole yet, we don't know if there is even an end to it- was created; or came out from a Void.The God and Goddess came out of it; that's why they are complementing each other, because they represent a whole that came out of a Nothingness.

This is very well put. They did, by magick, just pop up and create this place and the universe. Maybe this is why we practice magick in every day situations. Another interesting theory is that "Love is the Law". Love is what connects people through marriage, family friends, etc. The God and Goddess's love created us and the Earth. This makes me believe in religion more. There is no love in science. Love is the most natural and purest form that people strive for their whole life. Think of songs and movies. There are always love stories.

A single life is nothing in front of every life we will and have go through; so this "fate" is more of a... lifetime goal that our soul aspire to, and through lives and obstacles, we might reach it.

It's a lifetimeS goal! Thus going into the Summerland topic below.

If the clock finish its round, you can always rewind it, if you haven't enjoyed each hour properly.

LOVE this!!! Such smart thinking!! We can learn to use our time wisely but still acknowledge we will have more time in the next life/lives. If fate existed, like the Christian belief that everyone is predetermined, then I'm sure some people think "well what's the point of doing good - if I'm going to either go to heaven or hell?" At least that's what I thought.

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Echo you brought up very good points. Technology has changed our world so much! How jealous people from 500AD may be of us now! Perhaps they are the ones who come back as Bill Gates, scientists, doctors..

Your interpretation of Summerland is exactly how I feel about it as well. It's a stepping stone onto new lives, a place to just rest, relax, unwind, but look forward to future lives or peace after so many.

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Lillady, I see where you believe in fate and things being meant to be. I believe that some very important things in our life could be meant to be, while the not-so-life changing may be whatever happens, happens kind of things. But then we all know little changes can create a butterfly effect possibly changing our life completely. Sometimes it's like we have to choose. But it's almost both, do you think? I'm so torn ha. Perhaps you were a nurse in another life, and you already were made out to be one. Maybe this life is telling you to do something else. Or maybe like me and everyone else - we change our mind! I wanted to be an architect since I was in 2nd grade. I still love it, but it wasn't cut out for me. Perhaps that's a past life seeping through? Or it was something the Gods gave me to see if I could handle it or to show me there is something else I need to be doing.

I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR REPLIES!! THIS IS SUCH AN INTERESTING TOPIC AND I'M GLAD I HAVE SOMEONE TO SHARE IT WITH. BLESSED BE! :wink2:

[Xiao Rong]

This is a really interesting topic; thanks for starting it, Klia! (the following is sort of a collection of my thoughts on life, death, and the universe in general)

As a panentheist ("God/dess is in the world"), I generally think of the Goddess as the "soul" of the universe. The human body is incredibly complex, and out of that complexity arises our consciousness, the thing that allows me to "think and therefore I am"; I also believe that mountains and trees and even cells must have consciousness (even if it might be nothing at all like our consciousness). So I think that the entirety of the universe is so immensely vast and complex beyond our imagination that it must too also have intelligence (of which our individual consciousnesses are a subset). But this consciousness, which I choose to call the Goddess, arises from the complexity of the universe; it is incredibly hard for me to imagine that she could have come before the universe and set it in motion. In my understanding, she was born with the Big Bang. What set off the Big Bang, I have no idea, but I'm perfectly content with a naturalist, non-deist explanation of how the Big Bang was set off.

It makes intuitive sense to me that we all have agency - I hesitate to use the term "free will" because that sounds like we can do anything we wish, when of course we are constrained by a billion things (e.g. physical laws, genetics, the environment, our upbringing, our culture, what people around us do, etc.), but we have some amount of agency and have the ability to make (some) choices and act on those choices to whatever degree we can. The Goddess has agency (what kind and how much, I don't know) but so do we, so it's also hard for me to accept that she set things off in motion and everything we do is determined.

If the Earth and us was created through the Big Bang and not a deity (not proven in science) then what is the point of being here? It is depressing to think that we just live and die, that nothing comes from it and that is that.

There's a great quote from a TV show that I love, which is that "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." On the one hand, I understand that it can be really distressing to not know if there is a "higher purpose" or some kind of underlying meaning to all of life that we are meant to fulfill, but on the other hand, it's very liberating for me to know that even though things are not necessarily inherently meaningful, we (as conscious, sentient beings) have the power to inscribe meaning where there was none before, to declare things sacred to us, and by declaring things sacred, they become sacred. (through love, as you described it, Klia!)

To me, the capacity to experiencing life in its fullness (in both its joys and griefs) is itself this enormous, mind-bogglingly improbable cosmic accident that is only as meaningful as I want it to be, and I think of it as a really rare gift that I get the chance to be conscious as I walk upon the earth and I can change the world in whatever way I can before I die.

And frankly, I think that the concept of an afterlife is not that appealing to me ... Life is a crazy rare gift, but it's also hard and difficult and I've been suicidal before (from another favorite TV show of mine ... "The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it.") Of course I grieve when people I love die, but I grieve more for my own loss than for their sake. When I think of my own death (which I would prefer to be painless and easeful), the idea of being no longer conscious sounds quite nice - like a restful sleep after a grueling day. Of course parts of me (like my physical remains, and whatever legacy I leave behind) will persist in some fashion, but not my own consciousness, which is a temporary state of separation from the Goddess. As I read in Carol Christ's books, we shouldn't necessarily hope for a "career after death". Death, to me, is the appropriate end for life.

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow,
I am the sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning’s hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there; I did not die.