A strange thing I came across.

[A new found power]

Hello all. I was reading a book today on wicca and witchcraft (As you tend to do when you're studying...)

But I came across this very weird viewpoint. It basically went like this - "any negative magick you cast will come back to you three times, and any positive magick you cast will come back three times." - I'm fine with that. The confusion came when it then stated seperatly, "negative actions will be sent back three times." Now - This was not within the context of magick. They gave the example as follows - "If you punched someone in the face, you would get that back three times. Not necessarily being punched in the face three times, but for example falling down the stairs and breaking an ankle." - Or something to that effect.

Now, I'm fine with that. ASSUMING that it's a persons random violence with no real intention beyond harm. HOWEVER What about people who deserve it? Should we be punished for punching someone out of order in the face? ::darkmood:: Surely that would be seen as a positive action, as it was putting them back in order and saving people from their evil, instead of a negative action. As an example : If you punched someone in the face, because they were being randomly abusive and attacking members of the public. Or, A more likely example , If you retaliate and fight back when attacked.

It got me thinking. Surely if we are attacked we should defend ourselves? Whether that be physically or mentally. I can't comprehend that there would be negative consequences of a positive or well intended action. Or even self defence! So, I'm basically to asking what is your take on this? Do you agree that any action, regardless of the motive, if it causes harm is pure evil and deserves retribution? Or do you believe if the action can be justified then it is fine? It confuses me greatly. Thoughts?

[JuniperBerry]

Gardner isn't Jesus. He's not any god. He was a guy interested in athropology and the occult and he took a bunch of ideas from a bunch of separate sources and called it wicca. There isn't a three-fold law truth to the Universe. What there is, is Newton's law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". What there is, is the inescapable fact that everything you do influences your life and those around you and creates a future. So figure out if the consequences are worth it.

[Artie]

Gardener isn't Jesus. He's not any god. He was a guy interested in athropology and the occult and he took a bunch of ideas from a bunch of separate sources and called it wicca. There isn't a three-fold law truth to the Universe. What there is, is Newton's law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". What there is, is the unescapable fact that everything you do influences your life and those around you and creates a future. So figure out if the consequences are worth it.

I second that. Gardner wasn't saying "It's gonna go like this, 'cuz I'm BUDDAH." he was just making an analogy (or so I've interpreted it). In other words, don't go around punching babies in the face because they're crying too loud. Naturally, every action good and bad will have positive or negative concequences.

[Purewitch22]

I, myself, believe it is meaning if you harm ANYONE or ANYTHING whatever you do to that/them WILL come back 3 times worse! For example: If I cursed somebody lets say a BAD headache curse, I would get that bad headache back but much worse then whoever I cursed! So if they couldn't blink without pain, I wouldn't be able to move without BAD PAIN!

That is my perspective of it, although I am a newbie with magick I believe that is the truth and meaning of what you have read!

Blessed Be!

[Ravencry]

Thats the problem, Purewitch22, you aren't thinking for yourself and taking what makes sense to you, the beauty of Wicca and Witchcraft. Don't believe everything thats written in a book just because it says 'Wicca 101.' Step outside the box and form your own tradition.

[shadowx]

Agreed., the three fold law and indeed karma are both lies intended to scare you. Do not believe everything you hear, there are a LOT of crazy people in paganism...

[Asch]

I third or fourth this, Gardner et al are basically saying that you need to be very careful about what you send out intentionally or even subconsciously because it will have a ripple effect that can negatively impact yourself, your goals, and your intentions. A lot of witchcraft/pagan writings have similar rules or guidelines but there is no hardfast rule regarding the return effect. It's important to remember that 'rede' as in the wiccan rede means advice or guidance rather than law.

[spook]

I think the easiest way to sum up what they were saying without thinking of it as some magical formula for karmic retribution is what I learned in a course in sales:
for every customer who decides not to come back because of bad service they can tell say two other people to not go there who can tell tw more and next thing you know,no one wants to shop there because of one person who got bad service.
that's not the nice consise way they sed it in my course booklet but,hey,it's been 15 yrs.
LOL
treat others how you would
Ike to be treated I guess.

[shadowx]

I think it comes down to simple things, for example, if i were to poison you and your family i would first need to find someone willing to sell me poison (who might just mug me, rip me off, kill me anyway etc...) I then need to keep that poison closs to me so it isnt found (and i could accidentally poison myself, or a friend might think it is a drink and drink it etc...) I then need to come up to you and say "O hai, i haz special drink for yoo!" at which point you could turn around and stab me in the face for trying to poison you.

Likewise if i wanted to get someone medicine i have to speak to a healthcare professional, and perhaps get extra advice about making myself even better, i then have to look after that medicine giving me a chance to use it for myself or for other needy people too, then i give you the medicine upon which you thank me etc...

It isnt karma or a three fold law, just logic. To send negative energy you first need to surround yourself with it, i am not saying you should not use negative forces, sometimes it can be a good idea indeed, however if you were to do such a thing you need to be prepared. There are no rules remember? I will not tell you not to curse or hex, it isnt my place. Do as ye will, forget harm none

[Artie]

Agreed., the three fold law and indeed karma are both lies intended to scare you. Do not believe everything you hear, there are a LOT of crazy people in paganism...

No, Karma's real. But not on the sense that everybody thinks that it is. Whenever somebody wrongs me, something aweful happens to them within the day. But if I hurt somebody, nothing happens. At least, nothing coincidental outside of the logical consequences (if any). Either karma's real or my Spirit guide is looking out for me.

[Greek_Male_Witch]

Karma is a complicated thing, but I will explain you this: Whatever you believe thats the right thing, if you punch someone in the face and you feel like Karma will get you then it will, if you feel what you did was right because this person harmed you then it won't, I believe sometimes that Karma is actually our relations with others...but anyway I won't confuse you with my theories.

Karma is what you believe, if you think a kick or a punch will be returned then it will (its like cursing yourself)

[shadowx]

I disagree, what you are describing as Karma sounds more like an unconscious reaction to a situation. Like if someone went to punch you in the face and you ducked and punched their stomach, instinctive, but not karma.

[Kitty]

I see it more as you bitch about someone, then someone will think you deserve to be bitched about in turn
I agree that it's logic. If soemone hurts me then I'll want to hurt them back
It's just human nature playing out in my opinion
xx

[JuniperBerry]

Karma, according to the Dharma, is the totality of your life's actions and deeds that will be measured before you reincarnate and determine the quality of your next life. Western culture has diluted it to a 'tit-for-tat' concept.

[shadowx]

The issue i have with traditional karma is that it implies some god like being, even if that deity were karma itself, the universe needs some sentience to understand a good action from a bad one. Punching a mentally ill child in the face is consider a bad thing (usually, depends where you are) However if that child suffers from paranoia and is about to stab it's sleeping mother in the neck then it is surely a good action? In which case how does the universe which may not have a god or goddesses decide that?