Wicca sexist?

[Asch]

Yeah, I realize how and why the reverse is added I just personally find it counterproductive as discrimination, racism, and sexism are jacked no matter what and to me applying 'reverse' to it implies the 'normal' version is somehow more acceptable, ingrained, or okay. Which, clearly it's not. It's just a pet-peeve or quirk of mine

[JuniperBerry]

I'll try to keep that in mind.


Do any of the men here feel somewhat offended by the implications that a man must embrace the Goddess or his own feminine aspects in order to be sensitive, or nurturing or caring? Does it make the assumption that those are unmanly qualities, and impossible within a masculine nature... and is that an issue for you?

[Lost_Demise]

I think a lot about the religion offends me. Then again I'm not just a man but a parent too so both sides of it bother me.

It bothers me that they think a woman is only as important as their fertility, some women are never fertile and can never have children. Does that mean to the wicca religion she is forever a crone? If she's in her 20's isn't that more of an insult then a compliment? For she has not aged, nobody knows how wise or lack of wisdom she might have. Some women don't want to have sex, ever. They want to do things and find what is important to them and sex isn't it. All women are different, and not all women who are sexually active should think they need to be sexually active with a man to be important in their religion. I would be VERY unhappy and burn every wicca book I could find if one day my lesbian daughter decided to give up the girl she loves for the damned sake of having more importance in some religion! Why? It would feel like to me that the book had harmed my child, like the religion had harmed her, and religion can have large influences on the young or those looking and needing emotional support- anyone in any gender. Nobody, no religion is allowed to ruin my childrens happiness without me getting pissed off!

I didn't know that about the male aspect of the religion. That is insulting. Why should a woman need a man or a man need a woman? Why in any form? Romance itself isn't needed as there are many other things you could be doing. Having children isn't important at all because the population is already overflowing. I myself am a gay male priest in a religion that has no gods or goddesses. I was NEVER bulky, manly, or large and if you ask anyone that I know they will likely tell you I'm definitely a man but they will ether call me a feminine one or a flaming gay one. I don't need a woman to make myself sensitive, nurturing, or caring. I in fact mother hen a lot of my friends(on accident!) and none of my children hate me or consider me a bad parent and ya know there was no lady raising them with me. Its a double insult to men because not only is it saying that we are emotionally inadequate to raise children or to be a friend or to be a lover without the help of a woman. What kind of nonsense is that? It is insulting, a man doesn't need a goddess to be an adequate parent or friend or lover, be be sensitive or caring because in a relationship of any kind you needed to be at least a little caring- even in business you need to care. It is insulting, horribly insulting.

[Robert L]

I'll try to keep that in mind.


Do any of the men here feel somewhat offended by the implications that a man must embrace the Goddess or his own feminine aspects in order to be sensitive, or nurturing or caring? Does it make the assumption that those are unmanly qualities, and impossible within a masculine nature... and is that an issue for you?

not really. I think we all have duality.

[canobiecrazy]

I tend to find that Dianics and Fluffybunnists like to phase out the Male Energies.. Without Male energies, Female energies could not exist... I truly do not understand these traditions...

[JBRaven]

Juniper, you could see it as if the female is naturally divine, (the woman not having to choose to take the role of the creator, it just is so.) while the masculine must work for divinity. I also am not Wiccan so the true natures of these archetypes are unknown to me. In my head, when one is considered Crone, Virgin or Mother you also embody all three. Potential or experience. Also why do you automatically thing menstruation? I see thought process. As a child I am naive, Virginal. As I reach mid-life I am building my life and becoming my own adult, choosing whatever life I deem fit, but I am thinking of me and mine. As an elder I am a fountain of wisdom, a Crone (crone [krəʊn]n. a witchlike old woman[from Old Northern French carogne carrion, ultimately from Latin caro flesh]). A witch being a knowledgeable person of the energy that is the world, knowledge you only gain with age.

[JuniperBerry]

I'm pretty comfortable with my understandings of divinity and how they work in my beliefs. I'm more curious about the underlying social influence in the development of Wicca and even eclectic neopaganism that heavily borrows from it. Alot of pagan revivals were inspired by the Wiccan movement so it's sort of interesting to take a look at once in awhile.

Naturally Wicca is an agrarian cult so the emphasis will be on fertility and how that plays out in the macro and microcosms. Also, unlike the God, the Goddess doesn't die at the end of the Crone phase but continiously cycles and revolves through each phase, which can be seen as similar to our own lives as we move through symbolic and metaphorical movements on the grander universal stage whether physiologically or not.

The idea that the masculine is a servant to the Goddess is one type of the cultural issue that I see as sexist. Also in the deemphasis on the masculine, wherein the God's story is less fleshed out then his co-star. The reason I focus on menstruation is because age is not an indicator of wisdom, nor is parenthood. I know several people who have gone through the Crone phase that I personally would not consider wise or knowledgable. Some are senile, racist, backwards and ignorant. (And that's a whole other question of ageism. [And I smirked at semantics.. ]) What appears to be the consensus then, for cronehood, is the inability to bear children, directly linked in most ways to a woman's cycle. Does this concept- that one is judged as a woman for what she can offer based solely on her ability to bear children- offend?

Was this an influence of Gardners only barely coming into a post-modern era? Is it purely in the observance of the audience and a statement of our times? And isn't it kind of fun to take a critical eye to the myths and folklore you might take for granted and see how they stand up to hard questions and analysis? *puppy dog eyes*

[john85uk]

I think this is a fascinating topic of discussion with many angles but I'd have to say that a really don't think Wicca is sexist. I've only just read the Meaning of Witchcraft by Gardner and he's talking about a religion dating to prehistoric times when we all needed roles for survival and there were no suffragettes, gay pride or even age concern. Maybe a lot of the prehistoric ideas don't fit in with modern times but I think it's up the individual to decide on their own belief system looking at which parts they will truly believe in and which part they will take with a pinch of salt. I'm gay but to me man and woman are equal and free to do as they please.

[Lost_Demise]

Wicca is a young religion and was not around in prehistoric times.

[john85uk]

Yes but doesn't it isn't it stem from prehistoric times?

[Asch]

Eh it's debatable. Nature worship, herbalism, etc do stem from Prehistory but Gardner's scholarship is highly suspect. This doesn't make Wicca irrelevant or invalid but one should be aware. Many of the original 'scholars' of Wicca have been shown to have been biased or presumptive in their theories and 'facts'. Wicca itself is less than 100 years old.

[john85uk]

Yeah I get that Wicca is new. I keep making the mistake of saying Wicca and meaning witchcraft.

[Kitty]

hmmm - I don't think it's overly sexist - it just has a different version of feminism within it
whereas modern feminism is about equality much of the more liberal feminism in the mid 1900s was more about embracing femininity
I agree that the maiden, mother and crone can be seen as all stages of life but the idea that every woman will at some point be a mother is pretty outdated, as is the view that older people are wiser, yes, they have life experience, but the same can be said for a university graduate who toured asia in a gap year
there is also the implication that virginity = naive = pure - not nearly to the extent of other cultures/religions/times but it is still there
I'd like to point out that I'm not Wiccan so this is all written from my understanding of the wiccan concepts - If I'm way wrong don't hate me lol
xx

[Robert L]

Also important to not confuse a belief system's intention with some parties' interpretation.

the balance is important IMO because if your beliefs reflect nature, there has to be both male/female energies.

[JuniperBerry]

When a belief system is created by one person's interpretation, then it is important to uncover any underlying themes.

Balance is important, and I won't argue that. It's the interpretation of what makes the genders valuable that I'm taking issue with.