Wicca sexist?

[JuniperBerry]

So I've had this sort of vague notion for awhile that the symbology and philosophy in Wicca is a bit sexist. The idea that womanhood is identified as stereotypes bothers me. The Virgin, the Mother, and the Crone come off as shallow intepretations that men use to describe or qualify us, rather then seeing us as deep and complex individuals. The idea that when the moon is waning, and when the energy becomes less useful in terms of creating or 'bringing forth', that it somehow signifies a crone, old woman or hag offends me on some level. I have this idea of Gardner writing this out, as he's also writing the great rite (a pseudosexual ritual), and the tenet that his followers be skyclad- and I just want to slap him. Especially when the male energy doesn't pass through phases of decreased virtility or usefulness- other than just death. Is there no time when a man is less useful, when his energy is less strong, when he is identified only by the stages of life in which he completes and not as a fully realized being?

Any thoughts?

[Lost_Demise]

I honestly think at no point in ones life is one any less useful. Children learn but can also teach the parents through their innocent pure ways, an adult has more strength but someone more aged usually has more wisdom~

[JuniperBerry]

I don't think so, either. But I don't think your age or your role in life identifies what qualities you can contribute. To label women according to roles they occassionally take on seems inherently sexist. Like: that man is a jock so he's a stupid meat head. Or he's an accountant so he's a twerp. Plus, not only are women being defined according to roles, they're being defined through roles based on sexual maturity.

[Lost_Demise]

That is quiet sexiest to do, then again I really don't know much about the wicca religion. I was never too interested in being in it- then again by the time I ever started hearing about it I was already a priest in a different religion. I always have been slightly curious though~ Until I joined this forum. Shadowx says more then enough to satisfy any of my curiosity about it XD

[john85uk]

It's not as sexist as Christianity. No room for women there at all, in any shape or form. Except Mary maybe. You may be on to something though. But what the Crone looses in physical ability and appeal she more than makes up for in wisdom and spiritual power. The feminine aspect seems to dominate all of nature whilst the male God is someone who wanders the woods and is associated with death in comparison to the Goddess who represents birth. A much lovelier thing than death I think. Nothing in wiccan symbology and philosophy for us homosexual though. All food for thought.

[JuniperBerry]

The only thing the Crone 'loses' is menstruation. Why is that significant? She's not fertile anymore and therefore loses the status of "mother". Only in a patriarchal mindset. Women past child-bearing years can still raise children. They can still be virgins. They can still be stupid. The only reason Crone is significant is that she can no longer bear a child. She has stepped out of a useful capacity- in a man's view.


Edit: Not trying to be argumentative. Just like looking at these theologies and symbols a bit closer.

[john85uk]

I'm not being argumentative either. This is fun and you must realise I have lesser knowledge than you as I'm quite new to this. You do make a compelling argument though. In a strictly non argumentative way lol. I now have to agree with you though. It seems very sexist in light of what you have said. The Goddess does seem to be defined by roles but doesn't this also make the God look a bit useless though? He doesn't seem to have a role other than hunting (for woman) and being master of death which as I said before is far less desirable than birth.

[Artie]

The only reason Crone is significant is that she can no longer bear a child.

In the same sense, the only reason that women are significant as a whole is because of our estrogen levels and a few different organs. The maiden- virgin, fertile (at some point). Mother-nurturing, child-bearing. Crone- Wise, infertile. It's a pretty accurate representation of what the course of a woman's life is. Wicca is pretty acknowledging of men too. Most Wicca books that I've read give an appropriate chunk of the deities section to the explanation of the god. At least, the blunt version- and a heck of a lot more recognition than Abrahamic religions give us. So it's all fine by me! ^_^

[JuniperBerry]

. The Goddess does seem to be defined by roles but doesn't this also make the God look a bit useless though? He doesn't seem to have a role other than hunting (for woman) and being master of death which as I said before is far less desirable than birth.

Wicca can also commit reverse sexism. The difference between the God and Goddess roles are that the God is significant for things that he chooses to do ie, hunting. The Goddess is significant for things her body does; ie bleed- which she really has no control over and isn't an active participant in. Basically what it comes down to is: We like women because their bodies provide life (sex) and we like men because they're talented at hunting (mind).

In the same sense, the only reason that women are significant as a whole is because of our estrogen levels and a few different organs. The maiden- virgin, fertile (at some point). Mother-nurturing, child-bearing. Crone- Wise, infertile. It's a pretty accurate representation of what the course of a woman's life is. Wicca is pretty acknowledging of men too. Most Wicca books that I've read give an appropriate chunk of the deities section to the explanation of the god. At least, the blunt version- and a heck of a lot more recognition than Abrahamic religions give us. So it's all fine by me! ^_^

I hope you're not saying that the only reason women matter is because of our hormones and biology. Because that's how I'm using the word significant in this context. I know women who chose to be childfree, and they're offended by the idea that they're not womanly because of this. The course of a woman's life can take her so much further and have so much more meaning then the rise and fall of her fertility.

[Artie]

The course of a woman's life can take her so much further and have so much more meaning then the rise and fall of her fertility.

Of course, nowadays. But back in the times when survival was more important than the latest technologies, and even in the middle ages, there isn't much that men and women alike could do. I think that life being exciting and full of opportunities is a real luxury for both men and women, in the whole picture of things. Gender doesn't mean much in terms of making something of your life. (at least in my eyes. As long as you're alive and breating, bravo!)

I'm sure that way back, the main concern of the Gods and Goddesses wasn't who made the most cash in the new coca-cola office position. sm121

[Robert L]

Rather ironic.

For years, I really didnt look too hard at Wicca due to most of the women I had met that were into it. (4-5 over several years) were really anti-male and had changed religions just so they could have a religion that disculed a male diety.

[Kitty]

there's lot of reverse sexism these days - equal pay but men still pay for dates for exmple ... not that I'm complaining lol

I agree that it is far less sexist than many of the religions that are out there but if you think about it, equality didn't properly start coming around until the past 20 years or so, it's not exactly realist to expect a religion which only really picked up around the 50s to be up to todays standards
xx

[JuniperBerry]

The God and Goddess are meant to be outside of time, and the larger principles of the Universe. Not representatives of feudal England. Gardner, the (some say) creator or (some say) enlightener of the Wiccan deities, didn't live in the dark ages. Wicca emerged on the scene at the same time as cultural upheaval in Western society. Women had more authority and power, sexual freedom was a prominent ideal, but the old views of sexism were still present. Was Gardner influences by those equality (or lack thereof) issues? Kitty, should we be okay with it if he was? Or should it be discussed, looked into, and made acceptable in today's standards? Wiccans generally don't want to be compared to other religions that are accused of being out-dated and irrelevant.

Though survival was a primary concern, most developed pagan dieties were not as bland and genderized as the Wiccan lord and lady. Male deities that provided fertility were often depicted as having large phalli, while also being the rulers of law or war. Social constructs played just a large a rule in paganism as fertility. My argument isn't that fertility shouldn't play a role in a deities attributes and contributions, but that it shouldn't be the only contribution or attribute as it appears to be within Wicca.

[Asch]

I'd say yes and no. Yes because Wicca was largely created or conceived of during the extremely sexist Victorian era by a man (btw there's no such thing as 'reverse' sexism, racism, or discrimination, there's just sexism, racism and discrimination). Yet no, becuase it's so eclectic and varied nowadays that its hard to pin down what, exactly, makes a Wiccan.

[JuniperBerry]

Reverse sexism is just a meme that means the previously discriminated group 'reverses' the sexism back on it's oppressors. I think the context applies here in Wicca- through which a lot of women, as Robert L stated, use it to discriminate against men. *Shrug* Semantics.