Karma?

[EndlessNameless]

So I have never believed in karma. I don't believe in the three fold law and I have never been able to read the books my mom LOVES (The Secret, The Power, The magic), they reveal the magical 'secret' of karma and being grateful (Sorry if I sound bitter but my mom has said "it's like the Secret" and it annoys me). I just can't make myself believe in karma at all. Can I still be Wiccan if I can't believe in karma?

[Becks]

Karma is a huge topic and it's much much more than "The Secret" or the common (mis)understanding of reincarnation. Also, people throw that word around a lot...I often hear Karma referred to as a vicious police dog that bites people in the bottom. I hear people throw out the phrase, "karma is a b%#£€" or some such phrase where they hope people get their come uppance...none of these uses accurately describe the true nature of Karma.

I personally didn't like the way "The Secret" presented itself. I felt this way because it seemed to be feeling into the North American culture of consumerism and the notions of dreams of entitlement....that's how I took it. I think at its core it had a kernel, but in itself it was about commercialism...just my two cents. We have a mod who is amazingly educated on this subject and he would be worth listening to on this topic. His practise seems to adhere deeply to Karma and I'm educated each time I read a post.

I am not a self identified Wiccan. I don't know 100 % about past lives in my own case per se....but I have seen energy work in my own life, and through my own experiences I know how that works. In times where I have been feeling lost or stagnant, and not actively working on a way out of a situation....I have just remained on that trajectory. When I put in work on anything really, my career, friendships, education, magic workings, then slowly I have felt the energy begin to move...sluggishly at first, and sometimes it feels as though there is a great resistance to my efforts.....I have had setbacks, disappointments in these times and it's made me question why I'm working so hard....in my experience if I have continued to work past these feelings of resistance then eventually the work isn't so hard. It takes on a life of its own and almost seems to continue with little regular effort. This is like the momentum that is gained on a giant heavy wheel.

When I put out kindess, openness or generosity to those around me; I find I'm met with that energy....not always....there are small challenges and hiccups in life, but it makes sense. If I am unkind or scowling at folks...then that reputation proceeds me and I'm met with more negative energy. When I'm short tempered, people are on edge around me and that energy is going in a loop...they are edgy around me, so I am uptight around them and so fourth....if you break a cycle and put out the good stuff then it does come back...

I don't do good things things simply because I like what I get back....I do it because it feels right, and it feels like what I "should" be doing.

This is my own experience.

I think that being a Wiccan, Witch, Pagan...whatever you call yourself-is about reading and knowing the energy. I can't really understand how a person could practice and not engage mindfully with the energy. I guess it's possible, but it might limit your practice. You don't have to understand energy like they do in "THE SECRET" ...I certainly don't. I don't know about past or future lives...I don't know if its as they say in Buddhism, and I could come back in a different form....I don't know if I will pay in the next life for this life, or if I am living lessons from what I did or didn't do last time....

I do know that I feel the need to do the best I can in this life to lean and share and serve others. In my heart I know and feel that this time is a great gift that is temporary in nature. It isn't to be wasted. That is how I feel.

Now, do you have to believe in "karma" to be Wiccan is a good question. I think it depends on your Wiccan group. The one I initiated into did have the three fold law entrenched in its ceremonial "speak". That does tie into the ideas of putting "stuff" out and "stuff" coming back. They did talk a great deal about Karmic energy in that sense. It really is talked a lot about in the strict Guardnarian tradition where Wicca (as most understand it) comes from. There may be others who understand it differently.

I would suggest looking into your understanding of energy, what your personal beliefs are about what energy does...and then research the ideas and practices of Wicca vs. other kinds of witchcraft and the like. That way you can find your fit.

This is a great topic and I look forward to what others have to say about this.

Blue it would be cool if you could share your thought process and what you end up figuring out for yourself.

[Seraphin]

You'll get differing opinions here, as we have a wide range of practitioners at EUTM. My observation is that the longer a person explore their path and make journeys, the more concepts like the three-fold law and karma seem to get replaced by more complex, logical and rational philosophies. Besides, the Three-fold Law is quite specific to Neo-Wicca, and there are many pagans out there for which it has never been a principle or a law.

I've been around with a local Wiccan community for many years now, and at times I've been called to do some lectures in some smaller groups.I met some friendly Wiccans who don't believe in the three-fold Law but believe in the concept that "what you put out you receive."

If you're going to follow a particular Wiccan path liker Gardnerian then it's a general ethical principle and in respect to their beliefs, I believe you have to follow it. But Wiccan path is about as eclectic as any other pagan paths and many molded their path around his.

Personally, I believe in karma (and I still use the term since it's the most common used term for the law of compensation or law of cause and effect). Certain elements of this idea are consistent with my beliefs. Certainly, I believe there's no randomness in the universe, and human conduct sets in motion mental, emotional, energetic and spiritual forces which eventually manifest in physical effects, revolving back on us, ourselves.

But my belief, however, differs from the Eastern "Law of Karma" in significant ways. First of all, the Eastern belief about the "Law of Karma" is strictly personal; an individual who rape someone will be raped too, in this incarnation or the next or the next. The individual's rudeness will revolve back only on him/herself. It can't cause others to suffer. It can't cause other consequence. A lot of people DO believe it in, and it works for them, but the concept doesn't resonate with me.

My belief, on the other hand, credits my action with a much broader effect. The spiritual or energetic channels of effect run far below the surface, sometimes untraceable but powerful. It's like the Ma'at of the Ancient Egyptians, cause and effect, and choice and consequence. I believe in every choices we make there's a fair consequence, whether they be pleasurable or not pleasurable.

A second major difference is that karma is irrevocable; a misdeed once committed is, as they say in Hindu teaching, like the tusks of an elephant. It can't be retracted. I believe it's inexorable if one doesn't do something about it. My belief, on the contrary (which is by the way mixture of Yoruba, Ancient Near Eastern and Kabbalah), accepts the concept of repentance. Repentance for me is the same as the Yoruba concept of "Ori" (meeting the Higher Self) or in Kabbalah, "teshuvah". It means that I can confess, regret, forget and change my mode of conduct, and when I do, the past actions are spiritually erased. This is possible by either giving "Ebo" (sacrifices) which is believe in Yoruba tradition is capable of influencing our fate either for good or bad or by "Ese" or the individual troubles and struggles. Ese acts like a catalyst to the realization and reflection.

And that's what I believe, when I suffer I should scrutinize my deeds, implying that finding my Ori or teshuva for wrong conduct can change my life. So you see (although not a Wiccan... but a pagan), I believe in karma in a very different way, I believe it not as a cosmic tally system of some sort that keeps track of my good and bad deeds. Like you, I don't find that idea makes much sense to me.

[Becks]

That's really beautiful Seraphin. I especially liked what you had to say about being mindful when you are suffering and tracing back the mis-steps and growing from the experience.

[EndlessNameless]

Thank you all for your lovely replies!

[Ruth]

I believe in Karma but not 'they're going to get what they deserve' no no no that's not what karma is....
I believe that if someone does or says something not nice to someone else there is ALWAYS a reason behind it and KARMA at one point or another will come in and change the persons way of thinking, feeling and doing things and open up their minds to something new and different and make them think about the things that they have said/done in the past and make them feel or understand a different way they should have done or said it so it's not coming off to other people as negative....
If that makes any sense at all...

[Xiao Rong]

My understanding is that karma is significantly more complex than "what goes around comes around", which is more accurately known as the Law of Return. The Law of Return is a popular concept in Western thinking, especially for people who believe in the "just world fallacy" -- one where good people always win, and bad people always lose, often through divine intervention that makes sure justice is meted out correctly. We delight in saying "karma's a b****" when you maliciously try to kick the dog into the water but lose your balance and fall in yourself.



Unfortunately, as nice as that would be, I just don't believe that the world works that way. Sometimes bad people win, and sometimes good people suffer for no reason at all. Suffering, pain, and evil are just part of the way the world works -- like gravity, their existence is simply part of nature. No amount of wishful thinking or positivity will ever make suffering fully go away. And I also believe that the Law of Return has the danger of making us dismiss the plight of people who are already suffering (because according to the Law of Return they must have done something to deserve it).

I've done a bit of reading on Eastern philosophies, and my understanding is that karma simply means "actions have consequences" (not unlike a lot of Eastern wisdom which sounds "well, duh" on the surface but actually has a lot of depth). Your actions will affect you, mentally, physically, or emotionally. Here's an example:

I have a friend who had his car stolen recently. He told me was mad when someone implied it was ‘his karma’ because he reasoned he hadn’t done anything wrong to deserve it. But he was misunderstanding it, because it isn’t about ‘deserving punishment’ or anything of the sort. The fact of the matter is he parked his car there that night. It was his action, and so it was his Karma. He parked his car there, and it was stolen, it was his Karma, but it doesn’t have anything to do with him stealing a car in the past, or stealing a horse and buggy in a past life, and now being punished for it. It was just the action he enacted, and he got the results that resulted.

Source: One Breath Meditation

It's not about "you deserve what you get" -- it's simply that your actions have consequences. Some of it may seem more directly related (e.g. you are rude to your friends, and so your friends don't hang out with you anymore), but they don't have to be. Maybe it impacts you across lifetimes, but who knows? Karma is mysterious and complex; you cannot fully know your own karma, much less others'. As I see it, karma is simply about becoming mindful about your intentions as you go about your life, as your actions will inevitably have consequences.

In this sense, I have come to see karma as similar in concept to the Wiccan Rede. I view the Wiccan Rede less as a prohibition against doing anything harmful (which is impossible), but an ethical precept that, like karma, guarantees nothing but simply cautions you to think about your actions and take responsibility for them.

[Ruth]

Oh yes you said it much better and more detailed than me!