I need help in identifying if this means anything

[Siona]

I disagree with this statement right here by Siona. The event on the calander may noit be the same as in the ancient past, but it could be a deliberate clue regardless, and is also when alot of ppl will be trying to connect with the triple goddess. Not to mention celestially, orbit of earth and the moon shift. Just look at the new zodiacs. Not even the universe stays the same.

The length of a lunar month is the same today as it was in Ancient Greece. The summer solstice was around three days later than it is currently, but that isn't the exact start of the year, it starts with the new crescent after the solstice, so there is actually no impact to the dates of the calendar on most years, and very little impact otherwise. The reconstructed calendar in use today is virtually the same as the ones used by the ancient Greeks.

As for lots of people connecting to Hekate on that date, I suppose it depends on what community one is looking at... While I'm sure some do, personally, I have never seen any emphasis put in the 16th of November, but I do tend to frequent recon and otherwise non-Wiccan groups, where instead people celebrate the monthly deipnon, and also the modern Rite of Her Sacred Fires, in May.

As I said, something being modern doesn't mean it has no value, but it's important to understand where the information comes from. Example, as mentioned, the Rite of Her Sacred Fires is a modern celebration many of Hekate's devotees participate in and find meaning in, and it is completely modern... but at the same time, it never presents itself as anything but a modern invention, and the history behind it, who established it, why it was established, etc, is all very clear.

In my opinion, it's important to really look into what 'facts' one brings in to their practice. Where did this date originate from, and who first put the information out there? Why is it being presented as something ancient, when it is not? A mistake, a misunderstanding, something else? There seems to be a lot of copy and paste going on when it is mentioned. Why are some such sources ignoring the actual historic celebrations of Hekate? If you are going to incorporate it into your practice, that's fine, but it's good to dig into the roots of it, and understand it for what it actually is.

[Raven At Heart]

The lunar orbit may not have changed, but our solar systems relative position in the galaxy has. Tradition is fine but not accepting things change is like denying reality. The ancient Greeks used Astrology alot and depended on it. As for bringing facts in to it, are you even sure the Hekate celebration is on the same date every year on said calander? Did you double check? Or are you assuming it is. there are some celebrations placed on modern calanders that are on different dates in different years, in essense assuming that you're the nonly 1 who can convert the 13 moons into 12 months?. And as for the 13 moon phases in a year, Greek celebrations of the moon often depended on which constelation the moon passed during its cycle. and that has changed because our solar system is soaring through the galaxy like a comet. it is not stationary. Also didn't the new year start on the 1st full moon not new moon? Oh and last thing, Isn't Artemis the Greek Moon Goddess, as well as the Goddess of the hunt? Hekate by nature was the embodiment of the moon or so i thought, and was the goddess of Necromancy.

[Siona]

The lunar orbit may not have changed, but our solar systems relative position in the galaxy has.

Which is rather irrelevant to the calculation of the Attic calendar. You mention constellations and the like, but again, they have no bearing on the calculation of the calendar. The only change is the shift of the solstice, which I already addressed. The majority of holidays I can think of had no influence from the constellations, really... can you name an example?

Tradition is fine but not accepting things change is like denying reality.

And I'm doing that where...? I mentioned the only change one would find in the calendar. I spoke of modern traditions and their validity. But, a random date no one seems to have any sort of source to...? If you've got more info on the date, it's origins, I'd hope you would provide it.

As for bringing facts in to it, are you even sure the Hekate celebration is on the same date every year on said calander? Did you double check?

Yes. There are several primary sources for the holidays of the Attic calendar, some more fragmentary than others, but they line up well. The festival I mentioned is a fixed date on their calendar, even if it shifts when comparing it to the modern calendar we use.

Edit to add: or wait, I'm having a hard time following you... did you mean the festival I mentioned before, or the Nov 16th date? I have no info on the Nov 16th date aside from a bunch of websites, all without sources, which just say Nov 16th over and over. If that were not a fixed date, I'm not sure why they would do this.

in essense assuming that you're the nonly 1 who can convert the 13 moons into 12 months?.

Of course not, stop putting words into my mouth. Anyone can do the same calculations, many people do the same calculations, and since we are all using the same formula, we come out with the same "answers," so to speak. The reconstructed Attic calendars will all line up with each other, give or take a day, depending on if the one doing the calculations is using the local time or the time in Athens.

As for 13 moons, actually, there would only be 12 moon cycles, months, in most years of the calendar, with the addition of an occasional leap month (there would be a second Poseidon) some years. It is extremely similar to the Jewish calendar in that regard, if you are familiar with it.

(Actually, for anyone interested, Hellenion has a public calendar with the calculations already done, using the moon as visible from Athens. Here's their calendar for this year. http://www.hellenion.org/calendar/2016/ ... endar.html )

also didn't the new year start on the 1st full moon not new moon?

No. The new months always began with the new visible crescent, the holiday called the Noumenia, which was extraordinarily sacred- no other holiday could fall on it. Likewise, the new year would be the first visible crescent after the June solstice. Although, interestingly, there was no formal state holiday on the new year itself, only city sacrifices the day before. The Greeks put a lot of emphasis on the monthly unit over the year in some cases, although that was important in other ways. That's really all there is to calculate the months and days.

Oh and last thing, Isn't Artemis the Greek Moon Goddess, as well as the Goddess of the hunt? Hekate by nature was the embodiment of the moon or so i thought, and was the goddess of Necromancy.

Selene is the personification of the physical moon in the sky. Other goddesses were associated with the moon, but they were not the moon itself, if that makes sense. Both Artemis and Hekate have lesser ties to the moon. The three goddesses were heavily equated with each other, and actually formed a triad that was poplar in the later Roman era of Greece, Artemis-Hekate-Selene. (Or, sometimes just two of them could come together, like Artemis-Hekate, or Hekate-Selene, etc.)

For more information on them, I really suggest Theoi's articles on Selene, Artemis, and Hekate has a good article, as well.

[Raven At Heart]

Alright, I'm just gonna get right in this now. No modern worship is identical to ancient worship. Why? Well because there are not accurate enough records and claiming it was passed down along family lines is merely like telephone interperitation. Hecate is one of the most recognized and talked about goddesses in modern Wicca and witchcraft. Modern Wicca alone outnumbers the population of worshippers of ancient Greece many times. In the US alone there are almost a million pagan practitioners.

In ancient Greece at its hight the total population was around 3 million. I guarantee due to class and caste system back then, the majority didn't engage in a form of advanced witchcraft and prayer to the dieties. It would be more like an Christian in the 1940s who is uneducated and blindly following god as he was raised to do. The society was nothing like anywhere in the modern world. Scientific knowledge was not far past its nadir.


Like all ancient cultures it was plagued with disease, life expoectancy was 30-40, and the odds of very many of them being able to communicate with a divine being was very circumstancially low as a result. This is 1 of the reason I don't put very much stock in ancient worship vs modern.

Modern practitioners have more, not only scientific knowledge but knowledge as a whole, yet they still find a connection to their deities. But modern worship and magick is all about chaos due to easy access to and information trade. When free access to knowledge of martial arts started to exist, Bruce Lee developed one of the most powerful, if not the most, martial arts of his time. This was one of the first forms of mixed martial arts. Mixed martial arts is where you take the most effective method from many different martial arts and combine them into a new system. The new system is more effective and stronger. Chaos magick is this principle applied to magick. and like it or not, it is what modern magick is.

Regardless of whether or not you think your worship is identical to the ancient Greeks or not, it isn't. Knowledge was lost, and replaced. Lost when passing on from family member to family member, or teacher to student. Knowledge is power, this holds true in magick as well as anything else. Pure bred dogs have a narrow gene pool and are prone to getting genetic disorders you will never find in mixed breeds due to genetic stagnation. Much the same trying to remain nothing but traditional in worship instead of finding your own way in an age where knowledge flows almost as freely as air, I find that kind of goofy.


There are plenty of people in this current world who could actually communicate with Hekate, Artemis, Selene, An older ritual or date to them is of no more importance then a modern one, but at the same time, your way of thinking that modern worship may hold some value, instead of as much or more, We will have to agree to disagree. In the world today, there are far more witches, Wicca, pagans, and people as a whole. Knowledge is much freer and easier to access. The Deities are still there to communicate with. A lot of the ancient Knowledge is lost. But more then that modern knowledge is more plentiful. I don't have a problem with people following tradition, but that tradition regardless will not be the same as the ancients.

Chaos is the way the world works. The path of Loptr. I'll easily and readily admit you know much more about the ancient Greeks then me, but this isn't ancient Greece. Everyone forms or forges their path with their patron and matron differently if at all. The clues would be set in a more modern way to match the more modern times. Science and Magick are not Rival forces, they go hand in hand to those who have the gift or power or whatever you want to call it. Tradition is great and all but it will more often hold you back if you over-focus on it.

I don't know why but every time someone mentions the ancient cultures as if they are more important then the modern it urks me. As important yes, more, no.

[SnowCat]

I think both points of view have merit. A deity may use modern dates to contact a person who uses a modern calendar, and at the same time, that same deity may use a more old school method of dates to contact someone else. I don't recall that any deity has boxed him or herself into using only certain methods and correspondences.

Snow

[Raven At Heart]

I am agreeing with snow on this one.

[Siona]

Alright, I'm just gonna get right in this now. No modern worship is identical to ancient worship.

And I never once said it was. I said we can reconstruct the calendar to a very accurate degree. That's it. How we celebrate those holidays, and whatever else we do, of course there will be differences. Please, please, stop reading into what I'm saying.

Like all ancient cultures it was plagued with disease, life expoectancy was 30-40, and the odds of very many of them being able to communicate with a divine being was very circumstancially low as a result. This is 1 of the reason I don't put very much stock in ancient worship vs modern.

That's actually a misunderstanding of life expectancy. It appears low because of a high infant mortality rate. People who managed to reach adulthood often lived well into old age. To give a Greek example, the senate of Sparta only took in men who were over 60 years of age (excepting kings), old age was not as rare as you might think. Regardless, saying one could not develop a relationship with the gods, the gods their society gave birth to, the gods steeped in the symbolism of their culture, when one was surrounded by a world filled with gods, their shrines, holidays, oracles, doesn't make any sense to me. But alright.

As for the rest of your post... man, I don't really know what you think I'm trying to say here, but... yeah. I've already said, repeatedly, that just because something is modern doesn't mean it should be discounted. I did not say modern is worse, I did not say it was better. But either way, such information shouldn't be blindly accepted, either.

So, I'll ask again. What is the origin of the Nov 16th festival? Why should it be significant to those of us who worship Hekate in this modern day? If it's just a matter of finding a date on a website and rolling with it, well, if it works for you, awesome. But at least present it for what it is. If one needs to present a modern idea as something ancient, because that's the only way to validate it, that's a problem. Websites I've seen present this as ancient, as historical. It is not. Does it make it meaningless? Perhaps not. But a part of the meaning, the significance, must come from knowing what it is, and what it isn't. That's all I'm saying.

[Raven At Heart]

A meaning behind it, Hecate's vibrations were higher on that day due to worship. It is easier for a soul to incarnate on that day who is loyal to Hecate, linked to her energy, and gain a better chance at life. Also let me say, I never once said it was historically accurate, I merely asked if you were sure it wasn't. Nor was this the original meaning of the post. You made it as such with your post. The original question was, is there a possible meaning behind being born on this date.

[Siona]

I didn't mean in relation to Gentlelamb's birthday - for that I'll just say, similar to what I've said before, the meaning is in what one finds in it. I meant in general. Again, if it's just someone passed the info around so we're going to do it, great. I've already spoken of participating in a modern festival as such. I just can't help but wonder why the origins are left off of any source mentioning it.

[Raven At Heart]

My apologies if I was mistaken, but your post in context seemed like it was meant to discredit meaning behind the question. Then seeing Spirits post after, made it seem like it stuck.

[Katrinkah]

I think that no matter what the previous date was, there is significance in the modern date being the same as your birthday!