Native American Spirituality?

JuniperBerry
Banned Member
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:38 am
Gender: Female
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by JuniperBerry »

As someone reconstructing a native tribal religion I have a lot of respect for any form of it, and am hyperaware of the ethical borrowing and lending of their cultures and worldviews. As a personal standard I check out the sources and make sure they aren't committing cultural misappropriation or cultural theft. If they are, I let it be known in case anyone shares those standards.

Actually, I tend to research any new info or material.
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson



As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

-Our Troth
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

"cultural misappropriation or cultural theft"

what do you mean by that? You seem to talk a bit about that. (not in those exact words, but you know what i'm saying?)
I AM
User avatar
Asch
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:40 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by Asch »

I mostly write comic book scripts and short stories.

I think what Juniper is referring to is when an outsider takes teachings from a culture or tradition and then misrepresents them - either deliberately or through ignorance - in order to gain fame, power, etc. Sadly it's very common.
This is what I am, here is where I remove my mask.
JuniperBerry
Banned Member
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:38 am
Gender: Female
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by JuniperBerry »

Why am I speaking out on the subject of protecting native cultural traditions? Over the last few years, it's become very obvious how rampant exploitation and bastardization of native traditions, cultures, languages, and most importantly ceremonies has become in non-indian societies. To say that it's reached a critical point is an understatement. It seems that anywhere one turns these days, a person can find someone 'performing' an imitation (re: bastardized) form of a sweatlodge or sundance. Those two particular traditional ceremonies have become the favorites of people claiming indian descendancy or who "feel indian". There are people who claim to be Cherokee, Delaware, Hopi, and other Nations who are participating in the traditions that are not traditional to their own People. And of course, there are non-indians who also participate in the imitation ceremonies; mostly in a vain effort to try and be something else or to try and find something they feel is missing in their lives.

The protection of any Nation's traditions is vital to its cultural survival. As has been well documented over the last several centuries, when a culture is invaded by outside forces - be they materialistic forces, military forces, or forces that claim to speak on behalf of a religion, which is not the same as a spiritual force - the original ways can and have been lost. Forever. When an old way is blended with anything foreign, it is no longer an original way. It has become bastardized - mixed, blended......forever changed.

When traditions of a Nation are stolen from the People - even by one of their own - it hurts the person and the Nation. Is it any wonder why non-indian society is so confused about Native Peoples? Is it any wonder why the Nations are in turmoil, why the planet is being destroyed, why our children's future looks bleak, why so many are committing suicide, taking drugs and drinking, etc.? The list goes on.

It has to stop. Many traditional people are working together to spread understanding of this particular and important issue - to try and somehow make a difference. Unfortunately there are some 'leaders' who've become well-known in the new-age circuits, whose followers will defend the right of their 'leader' to perform imitation ceremonies. What is not seen or understood by the people participating in such things is that the supposed benefits of/in the imitation ceremonies do not exist - all that exists in such a circumstance is greed and ego, in direct opposition to anything dealing with spiritual issues.

http://thunder-fox.com/cultural_exploitation.html
Why not? Because all three videos had something else in common — the use of scathingly cheap Asian stereotypes. By covering their videos with chopstick hair and sword-swinging samurai, these so-called artists and their companies attempt to authenticate their otherwise boring work at the expense of already disadvantaged people. They were so blatantly offensive it boggled my mind and frustrated me by how simple it was for them to get away with cultural misappropriation.

And it’s not only Asian cultures — have you seen pop singer Ke$ha’s stupid headdress and warpaint trend? It’s absolutely infuriating watching a white girl play dress up because being Indian for a day is oh so fun. The level of offensiveness is amazing when you consider how we’re living on the land of slaughtered Native Americans and you know she’s totally not going to contribute anything to the various tribes whose aesthetic she’s misappropriating.

http://www.thecampanil.com/2010/10/21/c ... ll-racist/
Cultural misappropriation is stealing from a culture, usually a minority culture that doesn't have a large voice, and using the deeply spiritual practices, iconography, and rituals in a context in which they do not belong or in which the historical depth and religion of the people is lost. It's called white-washing. A person may like to use a native American birthing rites, because it sounds wise and intune to nature, but when you use it outside of the worldview and manipulate it to fit into your cultural understanding of the world, you're commiting theft. The rites and beliefs of people do not exist separate to their culture and lives. You can't remove one aspect and expect it to have any validity or value outside of the entire worldview in which it belongs.


Several members on here are trying to reconnect with their ancestral roots. It's a difficult task because so much has been lost. Wicca is one of the worst offenders, taking and mixing rites and deities as it sees fit and blurring the lines of what is traditional and solid and what is new-age and appropriated. Do you know how hard it is for someone, without the resources, to find authentic Celtic traditions that aren't tainted by wiccan practices and beliefs? How difficult it is to find authentic shamanic rites and beliefs that aren't white-washed by some hippie who took peyote? The cultures become lost.

Amazingly, there are so many valid religions and paths that exist out there and that are available to us, in their own right, yet they are overlooked or reworked into a modern Western viewpoint and culture. And within that viewpoint and culture they become a paradoy of themselves. They lose their meaning. The history, connection, truth and spiritual value is diluted, strained into a western mindset and worldview. And it's a tragedy.

That isn't to say things cannot be borrowed. But it has to be done in such a way that the truth of the rite is still appreciated. The truth needs to be researched, respected. It's bigger than you, the peoples of those tribes and their histories are bigger than you. You cannot steal their cultures and their beliefs and use them for your own purposes because it feels right, or you like it, or whatever. That's wrong. It's disrespectful, it's oppressive, it's selfish.
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson



As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

-Our Troth
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

Then how do you know the difference between someone who respects and wants to learn from a cluture that is not their upbringing and someone who uses it in a way to puff up their ego? I agree that the ke$sha thing is sick, and I have a deep love of world cultures and learning my personal heratage. I most of my family is german ,but I make polish recepies because my great grandma is polish and it gives me a good feeling. (i don't think there is anything wrong with good feelings)
I am not chineese, but I do appreciate the tao te ching and fully embrace all of the teachings i have heard. I do not claim to be a taoist... but I agree with a lot of it and understand a lot of it.
I am not budhist (maybe something close to it) but I listen to budhist teachers and read writings and meditate on them. I am not native american but I have a deep respect for thier connection to earth, their way of being, and what they had to go through. Is that wrong to like and learn a culture even if you don't adopt to it 100%? Is it wrong to be of an aclectic taste? I can't help what I enjoy or what I believe. I can't help but respect all of those cultures and I can't stop my natural desire to learn from them all. In your opinion, would that make me a thief?

I can see how it is important to preserve tradition. I do think it would be wrong to say "i am ___" if you do not know the roots and all of the information on it. I don't think somone needs to be of a specific culture to fully respect it, and I don't think just because a non native american performs a ceremony it makes it less "real" or they are void of spirituality. It sounds kind of racist to exclude white man as a reliable teacher on native american spirituality. Or to perform lodges.

I do agree strongly that tradition definately needs to be defined as such and non tradition needs to make itself known as such. And it should absolutely be preserved and respected.
I AM
JuniperBerry
Banned Member
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:38 am
Gender: Female
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by JuniperBerry »

presentcharisma wrote:Then how do you know the difference between someone who respects and wants to learn from a cluture that is not their upbringing and someone who uses it in a way to puff up their ego?
I don't think it necessarily has to do with ego, I think part of it is just Western culture. And sometimes a person may mean well without understanding what they're doing.

As an example of cultural appropriation, let's take Yule. In modern understandings, Yule is a solar festival that signifies the rebirth of the God at the solstice. This idea is every where. Gardner took a native Germanic festival and fit it into his beliefs and his calendar, without considering the truth of the source. He appropriated it. In truth, Yule has nothing to do with the solar calendar. As I wrote in another thread:

Yule was taken from the Germanic festivals that occured during the month of Yule for North European pagans. There isn't a ton of info out there but we do know that different regions had it at different times, for different lengths of times. Some would celebrate for a whole month from December 6- Jan 6, others a few nights, some in January, and some in February. It was then set at Christmas time when the heathens adjusted to the new Julian calander and tried to retain their old ways during the celebration. And European countries still have their local custom festivals during the holidays as well as Christmas that reflect the old heathen yule customs.

From what archaeology shows us, the solstice wan't an aspect of the yule festivals at all. Unlike the Celts, Anglo-Saxon heathens had little interest in Stonehenge et al. once they migrated into the UK, and the discrepencies between celebration dates show that the solstice wasn't the reason for celebrating. When looking at the myths surrounding these festivals, work was an important aspect in the folk lore. From what we can gather, farming was done for the season, fishing was done for the season and so all work was said to cease to leave room for parties. The nights were long and cold, people lived in small wood or stone lodges with a fire to keep them warm and so the communities would gather together to eat, drink, and be merry. Sacrifices were given to the gods to thank them for a good year and to also ask to have good fortune in the year to come. The act of sacrificing isn't cruel here; the families and chieftains had to kill livestock to eat it- there were no markets- and so what better way to thank the gods then to dedicate your meals to them and set them a plate.



Not many people are aware of this now, because the Wiccan re-imagining of the holiday has become so prevalent. Maybe Gardner thought he was keeping pagan mythos and worship alive by 'reclaiming' this holiday, but in truth he white-washed it, and took it out of it's working model and changed it into something else. If one wanted to celebrate Yule, one should do so as intended.

I agree that the ke$sha thing is sick, and I have a deep love of world cultures and learning my personal heratage. I most of my family is german ,but I make polish recepies because my great grandma is polish and it gives me a good feeling. (i don't think there is anything wrong with good feelings)
It’s not wrong to embrace or cherish pieces of your history. One doesn’t have to be of that ethnicity to celebrate it’s worship. Native Americans should be open to the idea of accepting other races into their tribal ways- as long as that person is devoted to the NA spirituality and culture, and not just on a day trip and getting a spirituality fix. My husband and I enjoy eating different foods from different cultures- last night we had some sort of Russian stroganoff, but we don’t consider ourselves Russian chefs and we’re not changing the recipe to fit our tastes and still calling it Russian.
I am not chineese, but I do appreciate the tao te ching and fully embrace all of the teachings i have heard. I do not claim to be a taoist... but I agree with a lot of it and understand a lot of it.
I am not budhist (maybe something close to it) but I listen to budhist teachers and read writings and meditate on them. I am not native american but I have a deep respect for thier connection to earth, their way of being, and what they had to go through. Is that wrong to like and learn a culture even if you don't adopt to it 100%? Is it wrong to be of an aclectic taste? I can't help what I enjoy or what I believe. I can't help but respect all of those cultures and I can't stop my natural desire to learn from them all. In your opinion, would that make me a thief?
It’s a complicated issue. Let’s look back at the Yule analogy. When you use Taoist beliefs, are you using them in the way that they were meant, or are you fitting them within an eclectic model? When you practice Buddhist meditation, do you incorporate outside techniques? Are you- metaphorically speaking- taking Yule and making it Wiccan Yule?
I can see how it is important to preserve tradition. I do think it would be wrong to say "i am ___" if you do not know the roots and all of the information on it. I don't think somone needs to be of a specific culture to fully respect it, and I don't think just because a non native american performs a ceremony it makes it less "real" or they are void of spirituality. It sounds kind of racist to exclude white man as a reliable teacher on native american spirituality. Or to perform lodges.
I agree that it isn’t, nor should be, a matter of race. It’s about not taking a cultural practice outside of the model it exists in to fit it into a re-imagine model. It’s about not trying out ‘sweat lodges’ a few times to clear out some negativity, but incorporating sweat lodges because you have the type of negativity or blockage that the Native Americans feel they have when utilizing them. You know, using them in the way that they were intended.
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson



As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

-Our Troth
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

well I believe I am using all of those methods the way they were intended. These things were not created to seperate cultures.

"It’s a complicated issue. Let’s look back at the Yule analogy. When you use Taoist beliefs, are you using them in the way that they were meant, or are you fitting them within an eclectic model? " Fitting them into an aclectic model is differnt from chopping it up so you "make it fit" into an aclectic model. I do not chop up and change taoism to fit my personal beliefs. I take what is good from taoism and incorperate them into my way of being.

"When you practice Buddhist meditation, do you incorporate outside techniques? Are you- metaphorically speaking- taking Yule and making it Wiccan Yule? "
There is nothing wrong with incorperating outside techniques if I am not trying to teach it as buddhism.
I AM
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

"My husband and I enjoy eating different foods from different cultures- last night we had some sort of Russian stroganoff, but we don’t consider ourselves Russian chefs and we’re not changing the recipe to fit our tastes and still calling it Russian. "


Exactly my point!! You eat from differnt cultures..... (practice from different cultures) , you don't consider youself to be russian chefs(100% native american spiritual practice) and you are able to enjoy it for a day without changing the recipie, and still call it russian.


However you must remember the need for the human race to evolve. SOmetimes we take need to the good and leave the bad. ITs imortant to be careful about what is left for bad though... but nonetheless. For instance.. you may not be able to eat green pepper, and if your strogonaoff recepie called for it, you would naturally remove it. It doesn't make it a bad strogonaoff, it just makes it another type.

We are going to go in circles because I am not planning on changing my beliefs for you. So lets agree to disagree on this.
And just to piss you off I will say that I DO plan to go to a sweatlodge this spring. Its a very small traditional lodge. It is all word of mouth, and only limited to a small group. It is mandatory to donate money for the poor tribes. (that is the 'payment") I have donated to tribes in the past without going to the lodges. I have gone out west last spring and the poverty was very real. The pourer is not vain, and says "i am just the guy who shakes the rattles and pours the water". My husband was invited by a friend of mine who is an older native american woman and a very spiritual person. (i am talking about real spirituality, not glamy spotlight spirituality) My husband had many amazing things happen in the lodges, and had changes in his life come out of the lodges. He is a very private and anti social person. He doesn't tell people about it. Our jouney together as a couple is at a point where we are tring to spirutally grow together and we often discuss our "aha" moments, things we learn during meditation etc to eachother. He felt iwas ready to go to a lodge, and I didn't want to for a long time. I am going now because I am at a crossroads in my life. I am at a spritual turning point and i have been making HUGE changes to move my life in the right direction. Now that I have removed the negative things that were blocking my growth (certin friends, certin habbits, I closed my successful business after 10 years because of what it was doing to me as a person, I physically moved , I feel ready. I knew I wasn't ready before. I am taking this very seriously, and I don't need to explain or defend myself or my motives. Just because most people look ta is as a "neato thing to try" Doesn't mean I am. ANd I don't like it being assumed.
I AM
Lost_Demise
Banned Member
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by Lost_Demise »

Present-
Cutting out the bad? Isn't that insulting the religions and belief systems you took those things from when you say it that way? Be more respective of them, and remember those things you consider the 'bad' that you cut out to another might be good that was wasted. You should be saying you chopped them up to fit you for the sake of it fitting you and your life- NOT cutting off the bad. Do not insult it. That's all I wanted to say.
User avatar
Zili
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:15 pm
Gender: Female
Location: South East Texas

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by Zili »

I dont' have a book suggestion on native american spirituality, but i do have a gook on general shamanism that's pretty good.

The Secrets of Shamanism by Jose Stevens PhD and Linda Stevens

I too have been looking into NA Spirituatily and Shamanism for a while but I've found nothing. I originally started looking at the tribe i'm descended from on my father's side, but they were among the first natives to try the white man's way of life and all traditions and most beliefes have gone to the wayside many years ago.

It was suggested to me however to look into the Lakota's beliefes after i realized almost every piece of native american art I've been given is all Lakota.
JuniperBerry
Banned Member
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:38 am
Gender: Female
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by JuniperBerry »

I just wanted to mention that the book wasn't from the best source. That all religions are valid and beautiful in their own right. You asked what I meant and I elaborated. I don't care what you practice or where you go, Present. I'm not trying to save your soul nor am I looking to fight with you in every post. You're path/belief really isn't that important me. I have my own and I like to share it with others as well as discuss general philosophy. If that's an issue for you, feel free to pm me or contact a moderator.
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson



As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

-Our Troth
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

"Cutting out the bad? Isn't that insulting the religions and belief systems you took those things from when you say it that way? Be more respective of them, and remember those things you consider the 'bad' that you cut out to another might be good that was wasted. You should be saying you chopped them up to fit you for the sake of it fitting you and your life- NOT cutting off the bad. Do not insult it. That's all I wanted to say."

I never said I personally cut apart any religion. I never said I took out the bad. I just said sometimes it should be done. I also said caution must be used when deciding what to leave. I didn't say re write a religion, I meant take what you can use. I personally do not do this. (aside from personally taking only maybe 5% of biblical .. I suppose i would then consider th 95% that i cut out of my personal liking) You mean to say when you like something about a religion, you have to love and adapt to the entire thing? I have learned that every religion has something to give... and there are parts that i choose not to take. Call it what you will. Its not disrespectful. I was making a point on a LONG conversation over many posts with juniper.
I AM
User avatar
presentcharisma
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:44 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by presentcharisma »

"You're path/belief really isn't that important me."

Juniper- that would be news to me. You seem to track down ever comment I make and try to re interpret it and measure me up as some religious thief. My very first encounter with you you called me lazy.. this was within 24 hrs of me joining this forum. This is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. I am here to learn and discuss... asking questions is natural and fine, but calling me lazy, egotistical, and a thief is not "discussion" its attacking. I am not some 15yr old niave girl who is going to back down after being attacked. I already said, lets agree to disagree. You will think of me what you will, but you will be wrong.
I AM
JuniperBerry
Banned Member
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:38 am
Gender: Female
Location: Arizona
Contact:

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by JuniperBerry »

I have apologized to you twice now, Present. I have admitted I was wrong for taking frustrations out on you. I knew that in a heated moment it wasn't fair to judge you or to base any judgements on that one conversation. That is all I can do. If that's not acceptabel to you then I'm sorry.
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson



As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

-Our Troth
TaylorS

Re: Native American Spirituality?

Post by TaylorS »

I fear that the fears by Native communities about misappropriating their cultures are pretty damaging in the long run, if other people are not allowed to learn Native teaching I fear then those teachings will eventually be lost. I have heard many stories of many natives not being able to practice their traditional beliefs because of the influence of Evangelical Christianity in their communities. One story I remember reading about a Ojibwe family in SW Ontario not being allowed to build a sweat lodge by local reservation authorities because most of the rest of the community raised holy hell about it being "un-Christian"! :roll: :x :cry: It seems like many natives trying to preserve their own beliefs are being persecuted by their own people, what happens if the Evangelicals succeed in stamping out the "old ways" if only Natives are allowed to practice them?
Post Reply

Return to “Shamanism”