Please, don't do this guys

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Flamewood

Please, don't do this guys

Post by Flamewood »

So, I'm probably gonna get a lot of people who don't like me for this. I'd like to preface this by saying I am Metis, of native, british, and german heritage. I have been involved with the native community here for almost my entire life, and the same goes for the Metis community.

Most indigenous (and I refer to north american first nations peoples here, as I do not have experience with others) spiritual paths are closed. If you are unaware of the concept, I'm referring to a spiritual path or religion into which outsiders are not welcome.
This, obviously, is not always the case, but I implore you to do your research before adopting native beliefs into your practice. And please, always make sure you know what band/group the practice you are using came from, because First Nations peoples are not all the same. If you are going to use dreamcatchers, or other similar items, please purchase them from a native craftsperson if at all possible. I wish I didn't have to say this, but lately I've seen (in the pagan community on the whole, not necessarily this forum) far too many people attempting to co-opt symbols or traditions from places and people they shouldn't.
Also, finally, I implore you: don't do things like those gimmicky "get your Indian name" classes, and be wary of anyone who charges for native wisdom who says things like they "are the only white person to be named chief" of some unheard of native group, often South American. They are almost always scam artists whose work only hurts FN people.
Do your research, and if a path is a closed one, then it is closed.
Thank you.
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SnowCat
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by SnowCat »

I've seen dream catchers that are labeled "made in China." I steer clear of those. My grandkids have Cherokee and Choctaw heritage from my ex, so we've researched some of the lore of those people. We've also researched mining, because that's my family's heritage. It's about respect.

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manshin
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by manshin »

Totally agree. I'm actually very glad to see this topic broached here because most people are too wary in a neowiccan forum.

Cultural appropriation needs to be discussed in every pagan sphere because it is just SO rampant. People making "smudging" kits, people worshiping gods from closed traditions like Shinto (a few Japanese people have told me one can worship the kami at the appropriate shrines but that doesn't make those people shinto since it's ingrained into the culture).

Korean traditions and folk magic are also closed. Our gods came to us, not to the people of Germany or Scandinavia. Cultural appropriation breeds fetishization, otherism, and racism. It needs to end.
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narveya
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by narveya »

I agree with this honestly and I'm very ashamed that once I did a cultural appropriation back then, I kept researching because of discomfort and a huge doubt, until I stumbled on one tumblr. That condition of mine was a confusing experience, because I found a recon site/blog of the closed culture and the tumblr. To stay safe and be respectful, I decide to gladly back away. Left me messed up and frustrated for a while but it was worth it. I learn a lot from this experience.

There are a lot of folk traditions in my country as well and pretty much, those all are closed.
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Naudia Threng
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Naudia Threng »

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. You have the right to practice whatever religion calls to you. Now, if the religion specifies that a certain demographic can't join or you only want to join because it looks cool or its "hip", then fine, you cant and shouldn't join. But if you don't want someone to join because they aren't from the place the religion is primarily practiced, that is text book racism. However, if you have the power to choose who enters you religion, and you don't let them because you think they may be not be ready or serious about it, that's also okay. But, religion is a free and spiritual thing. Whether or not you want people to join because your prone to self inclusion, that's your problem and you should deal with that separately. We don't choose our religions. They choose us. And so what if the Shinto gods choose you a long tine ago, they might choose a Scandinavian or German just as much. And not everybody in Korea or wherever, practices Shinto. I cant imagine that deity would be proud of you for denying them more respectful followers. If a religion calls too you, listen.

:EDIT REASON: I did some research and it changed my opinion-ish
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Naudia Threng »

manshin wrote:Totally agree. I'm actually very glad to see this topic broached here because most people are too wary in a neowiccan forum.

Cultural appropriation needs to be discussed in every pagan sphere because it is just SO rampant. People making "smudging" kits, people worshiping gods from closed traditions like Shinto (a few Japanese people have told me one can worship the kami at the appropriate shrines but that doesn't make those people shinto since it's ingrained into the culture).

Korean traditions and folk magic are also closed. Our gods came to us, not to the people of Germany or Scandinavia. Cultural appropriation breeds fetishization, otherism, and racism. It needs to end.
Could you elaborate on whats wrong with "smudging" kits? Because I make smudging stick things with my own herbs all the time. And smudge with them.
O Goddes, all praise to you. Ta em hotep, anekh hrak. Lady Isis, I adore you. Nebet aset, tu a atu.
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Sakura Blossom
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Sakura Blossom »

This is a really, really tough subject to have any kind of answer to honestly. There are a lot of factors that would play into this. I don't think that one should avoid following another religion just because it's heavily practiced more in another region of the world. Now, allow me to elaborate on what I mean.

I understand completely the idea of just following something because it "looks cool". For any religion, that's not why you'd follow something and I'm sure that would be taken as insulting to those who truly believe in what the religion is all about.

However, if you read about a religion or a religious practice that really, really resonates with you and feels like it's a direction you want to take then there is no reason why you shouldn't explore it. I personally believe that all religion is there to be shared and learned -- unless it specifically states otherwise. If it does, then you'd want to be respectful of it and find out if there are ways to learn more about it or to study it with those who practice.

That's another really important detail as well. No one person is the same and I have had the opportunity to discuss this kind of topic with someone of Native descent and he told me the same thing. There are many different views within just one clan of a tribe about how matters of said tribe should be handled and the same goes towards religion. I know people who would be more than accepting to others wanting to join their path and others who would want to keep it strictly within the tribe itself.

It's one of those things that you need to be wary of, yes, but I don't think it means you shouldn't be able to follow something if you don't belong to that particular region of the world, nationality, and so on. I think religion is there for everyone and that everyone has a right to it.

We see it often, after all. Some people convert to Judaism for their spouses while others convert to Greek Orthodox. It's really dependent on the situation and also varies person to person.

As long as you go about it in a respectful manner then I think you're alright. Just doing it to be "hip" with the new age movement isn't.

Those are just my two cents on the matter.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by YanaKhan »

I'm with Sakura and Azure Lily on this one.
After all, most people nowadays descend from many different cultures and nations. Most people can trace their ancestry few generations back, but it doesn't mean they are not from a certain origin. What I mean is, lets say you live in the US and are from Irish origin. You can't be positive that none of your ancestors has had Norse blood for example. And you find yourself interested and drawn to the Norse religion, but don't know why.
I believe there is a part of every one of us that knows what path is meant for them. I had to walk several, until I found my own and it turned out to be quite a mix. I don't believe I disrespect any of the deities I work with, they do help me and I honour them.
Still, I really understand the "hip" thing and you do have a point. One shouldn't disrespect any religion.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by SnowCat »

As far as I know, none of my ancestors came from Egypt. My family history is pretty well traced to the British Isles. I understand that the Vikings invaded the area, and that I most likely have a bit of that in my background. That could explain Odin, Freya, and Loki. That does nothing to explain Bast, Sekhmet, and Anubis. But they have all made themselves known to me. It is what it is.

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Naudia Threng
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Naudia Threng »

SnowCat wrote:As far as I know, none of my ancestors came from Egypt. My family history is pretty well traced to the British Isles. I understand that the Vikings invaded the area, and that I most likely have a bit of that in my background. That could explain Odin, Freya, and Loki. That does nothing to explain Bast, Sekhmet, and Anubis. But they have all made themselves known to me. It is what it is.

Snow
I have a long and well documented family tree, I am not of Egyptian or Greek origin. I do have lots of Celtic blood in me though. I'm literally just Irish and Scottish. Which would explain Herne and Cerridwen, but not Isis, Serket, Hecate, or my small stint of servis loa.
O Goddes, all praise to you. Ta em hotep, anekh hrak. Lady Isis, I adore you. Nebet aset, tu a atu.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by YanaKhan »

Sometimes I'm having a hard time expressing myself. My point was that sometimes you may know for sure why you are drawn to a certain religion, but other times, you may not even know why. And you may find the reason in your ancestry, or even in a past life. To me, the important thing is, you are drawn to a religion for a reason, no matter what it may be. And you should follow your path, despite not really being a direct descendant of a nation or a tribe. This, of course, is the way I see things, not necessarily how others should.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Xiao Rong »

The tension I see in all of these discussions is that Western spiritual tradition is quite lacking and we want to borrow the great ideas from other cultures, but how do we do so respectfully and without robbing and cheapening others' cultures, which can be their main source of strength and pride?

As others have mentioned, cultures intermingle all the time; cultural synthesis isn't new. The danger is that Western culture has a tendency to take things, cheapen and commodify them, and then sell it for profit.

I recently came across this article, Differences Matter and Trying Isn't Enough (by druid blogger John Beckett), which I have found to be the most moderate explanation of the difference between cultural synthesis and cultural appropriation and why cultural appropriation leads to shoddy spirituality.

Says Beckett:
People have been borrowing and blending spiritual practices ever since the first tribe visited another tribe down the river and saw them doing stuff that looked useful. But adapting someone else’s spiritual technology to your culture is one thing – claiming membership in an unfamiliar culture or lifting cultural elements out of their context is something very different.
The problem, he writes, is that Western society comes from a highly individualistic standpoint. The idea of the solitary practitioners is basically unheard of in many other cultures, where spirituality is based on the family and the community. No matter how much you try, you're going to lose a big piece of that spiritual tradition in the process.

He also points out that Protestant-dominated Western culture assumes that all you have to do to join a religion is to adopt their beliefs and that it is all a matter of choice: "It sets the expectations that all religions are looking for converts – we expect that when we walk in a church, we can join any time we like". In reality, other religions don't share these assumptions, and are often confused and offended when we do:

Here's an excerpt from the article:
For most people throughout most of the world throughout most of history, religion hasn’t been about what you believe, it’s been about what you do, who you are, and perhaps most importantly, whose you are. Where do you belong? What are you a part of? “Joining” a religion like this involves far more than worshipping the right Gods or affirming the right doctrinal proposition.

Some religions and spiritualties are a matter of identity. Identity can’t be changed by wanting or trying – it can only be changed by living. And for too many religions and cultures, part of that living has included oppression by conquerors and colonizers.

If you haven’t shared in the suffering, you aren’t entitled to share in the glory. More than that, if you haven’t shared in the suffering, you can’t understand the glory. The issue of cultural appropriation is ultimately a question of authenticity.

I occasionally come across white Pagans who really really really want to practice “Native American spirituality” – as though the Iroquois, Cherokee, and Comanche peoples all have the same beliefs and practices. But that’s not something you can learn from reading a book or going to a public ceremony.

Of course, there are few opportunities for white people to live, say, the Comanche culture, even as it’s practiced today, much less as it was practiced in the pre-Columbus era. Ask and you’ll likely be met with skepticism if not outright hostility – a very understandable response when you consider the long and deceitful history of white people’s relations with Native Americans. And so instead of moving on to something else, some white folks say “I really really want to be part of this culture, and so even though I don’t know enough about it to know what all this stuff means, I’m going to take it and use it completely out of context.” And they fail miserably.
Anyways, I highly recommend you read the whole article (and the blog post by the Anomalous Thracian, who also has some very great points to share).

This is why, in the end, I'm far more interested in trying to create and develop new traditions based on my connection to modern culture, society, and where I live. As I've written about elsewhere, I am myself removed from my culture of origin. Although I've attempted to continue some threads of Chinese folk religion, the fact of the matter is, I can't. I feel so much more at home in Wiccan and Goddess tradition (neither of which are particularly old, contrary to popular opinion). I of course have to borrow spiritual insights from other cultures, but I can't pretend that I'll ever have more than a piece of it. Instead of trying to derive authenticity from the exotic and the foreign, I've got to focus on the wisdom of the here and now.

As the Charge of the Goddess states: "For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without."
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Firebird »

I have more to say on this than my little tablet one finger type will allow.
Xiao, thank you for your imput couldn't have said it better.
Being a white woman with a Lenni Lenape bloodline severed by adoption seperated me from learning that part of my culture. Being unable to "prove" my lineage has been a roadblock at Native gatherings.
Flamewood wrote: be wary of anyone who charges for native wisdom who says things like they "are the only white person to be named chief" of some unheard of native group
Your key words there "are the only" should alone be a reason to run from such a person or place, regargless of what teaching they are trying to sell.
I agree there are some who would use what bits of knowledge they have to exploit for money, it is the responsibility of the seeker not to be ripped off. As in the case of James Arthur Ray, sweatlodges are not exclusive to the Natives of America and you would never attend one without water yet he managed to schmooze tons of cash from smart people swept up in his glamor, convince them they didn't need water and it was part of tbe purge. I had a coworker attend the very same workshop that a few weeks later took the lives of 3 people. She told me about the water deprivation...and the cost...shocking. There is reasonable payment, and then there is rediculous.

I would like to add if Native peoples from tribes other than the ones that are from the coastal regions of California from Baja to Santa Barbara are using white sage ( Salvia apiana) in their ceremonial circles they too are swapping religious tools. White sage is endemic to southern California and belongs to the peoples of that area. Sage should be given as a gift, never sold, yet I see it for sale at most pow wows and gatherings I attend. I say if you can grow it then go for it, but then there is the native plant peoples that say foul! Spreading plants to places they don't belong. You cant win.
Also you may be hard pressed to find Native peoples that do not include some sort of Christian idealism into their work..To me this may have surpressed much of their original beliefs, yet even though forced upon them they have found a way to make it work.
Since I never have been to the lands where my primary Celtic and Germanic lineage dwell should that exclude me from learning about them and possibly reconstructing arts of the Gods and Goddesses from there? I would think that if one resonates to a people or place that is the call of the worshiper. I wouldn't expect my Celtic deities to be absent just because I now live in a place that is not native to them, nor would I expect Odin, Thoth, Hecate, or Amaterasu wouldn't arrive should I have called on them or not, simply because they are not of my regular pantheon? Am I to assume Hutash is not listening as I stand upon her Native lands?

I think if we were not meant to meet and meld, then as a human race we wouldn't be equiped with an energy that wishes us to be social.

Remember imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Firebird



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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by SnowCat »

I think the key is respect. We may be drawn to certain practices for reasons we can't define. If a practice of another society is appealing, and is practiced with respect, and without misrepresentation, it should not become an issue. I would not infringe myself on a ritual being performed by a person or group. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in learning about their practices for the spiritual and educational value.

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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Siona »

SnowCat wrote:As far as I know, none of my ancestors came from Egypt. ... That does nothing to explain Bast, Sekhmet, and Anubis. But they have all made themselves known to me. It is what it is.
For what it's worth, while several examples of "closed" traditions have been named, a lot of ancient pagan traditions would not have been seen in that way. The Egyptians looked at other deities and saw their own, there was often a lot of mutual cultural exchange between ancient groups. The same could be said of much of Greek and Roman religion, too, for example. All these cultures had religions that were deeply woven into their daily life, but had elements that "traveled" and were open to anyone who sought them, as well.

That said, I think that's all the more reason to be careful when looking at those more closed traditions. If a group says, no, look, this isn't for you... maybe it's best to respect that. Especially when a lot of these groups are still having their culture and identity stolen and erased on a daily basis.
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