Please, don't do this guys

Discussion of the different types of witchcraft and pagan paths.
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Badgerstate
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Badgerstate »

It's interesting when you start talking about, "closed" religions. If a deity speaks to you, it speaks to you. There are people out there who would tell you that you can't be a Christian witch because those 2 things are in conflict with each other. I don't personally subscribe to the belief that you should practice a path from a certain region if you aren't from that region or don't have ancestors from that region. In the end, all human beings can trace their ancestry back to 1 original human being.
I do agree with being careful who you get your information from because there are a lot of people out there who are selling nonsense and act like an expert when they aren't.
Take my wife's aunt, for example. She decided suddenly that shes an animal faith healer. She didn't have a moment where the Gods spoke to her, she simply decided one day to start being an animal faith healer. She and I have talked about it and I tried to not be skeptical of her but I'm usually a pretty good read of people and it just screams of BS to me.
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manshin
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by manshin »

There's a lot of general responses, so here are just links and bits of articles as to why cultural appropriation is always wrong, I don't care if the "god" from that CLOSED tradition calls to you, you are able to tell them no. And you shouldn't be listening to something that could possibly be your imagination over a whole culture of people (not implying anyone in this thread is making stuff up, but a lot of people don't seem to discern signs and messages very well). Good rule of thumb is probably “are the gods, perhaps, telling me what I want to hear? If so, it *might* not be the gods.”


And before I jump again, I need to mention that there is a HUGE difference between worshipping gods belonging to an open culture. I am also Kemetic. Ancient Egypt was an imperialistic and open culture. They wanted others to practice their religion and their way of life because it was seen as the cultured way to live. Kemeticism is entirely open.


tumblr user bornabitch-allthedaysandnights wrote:cultural appropriation is an anthropological concept supported by decades of research by social scientists and (because it has a big legal compontent) lawyers, not a tumblr thing. And given that it causes “devastating and clearly wrongful harm” and “leave[s] members of a culture exposed to discrimination, poverty and lack of opportunity” (according to The Ethics of Cultural Appropriation edited by Young and Brunk), it’s not ‘the least of everyone’s worries. You not being offended doesn’t mean anything, it’s the effect/impact of appropriation that causes the harm, not the personal offense of the culture’s members: It’s Not All About Feelings

You’re also completely ignoring how highly protective ACTUAL Hawaiians are fiercely protective about their indigenous culture and get VERY upset when it is appropriated.

Nor do you understand how the basic concept of sharing works.

When someone shares something with another person, they do so willingly, because they want to. Someone deciding on their own to use a tradition from another culture cannot accurately be described as ‘sharing’ because no one is willingly giving it to you, you are taking something that doesn’t belong to you without invitation or permission, which is called stealing. You cannot share something that is not yours to give in the first place.

What people against appropriation are advocating is that people do not use the traditions of marginalized groups unless they are invited, NOT that people from different cultural groups should never interact.

An Anon asked:
I don't understand how it's cultural appropriation to worship gods from closed cultures if you're not like taking rituals or sacred things from that religion, like you keep their practices in mind but do your own thing.. the gods aren't static or stuck to those people -despite having a special bond with them or possibly originating from them- and if the gods are okay with it, especially if they're the ones approaching them what's the biggie?
reply by tumblr user jeneelestrange wrote:This is exactly why you SHOULDN’T worship gods from closed cultures. Taking them out of context and making up your own rituals is EXACTLY WHAT THEY DON’T WANT TO HAPPEN. They want to try to keep their culture intact and not have their gods used out of context and watered down. Do you think Christians would think it was okay if you had sex on an altar and called it a ritual dedicated to Yahweh? Or do you think Muslims would like you making a burnt offering of pork to Allah? No matter what you profess of your “special” relationship and knowledge of a deity, it’s goddamn offensive to pretend that you can literally do anything you want without people being offended. The fact that you think its suddenly okay for you to play around in POC indigenous religions like they’re your personal sandbox is offensive.

And no, if the gods originated from their culture, it by definition belongs to them. You have no actual knowledge of how or why these gods originated(I am not going to argue with anyone on this–you do not have magic seer woo-woo powers that allow Closed Deity to agree with everything you say), so for all intensive purposes, they are theirs. And taking and using things without the owner’s permisssion is stealing. They have the right to tell you what and what not to do with their things.


A NeoWiccan said:
I WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS ON MY BLOG WICCA IS A PRACTICE AND WE BORROW FROM OTHER RELIGIONS WE WORSHIP DEITIES. THOSE ARE GODS TAKE YOU IGNORANCE AND BULLS-T SOMEWHERE ELSE YOU LITTLE S--S!
reply by tumblr user lavenderwrath wrote:So you condone the misrepresentation of another religion’s deities in Wicca, and the taking of deities out of their actual cultural context at the whim of Wiccans, in particular the continued robbery of many marginalized and oppressed religions?

So you honestly think being Wiccan just gives you a free pass to take from the religions of numerous PoC cultures?

Do you not see the flaw in this? Do you not see how very inappropriate and even racist this is? This feeling of entitlement?

I understood that the OP was a newcomer, and was copying from a source. I was trying to inform them that taking deities from religions that clearly are not okay with it, is cultural appropriation.

“But what if the deity contacts me first?”

First, can you, without a shadow of a doubt, know for certain that the entity who contacts you is indeed a deity from a closed religion? Can you say you know them to be who they say?

Second, respecting the boundaries of often oppressed minority religions, can mean saying no to a deity. I’m sure you’re wondering why you should respect those boundaries, and if you have to wonder, I’m not sure you can see past your own feelings of entitlement.

Third, a glimmer of hope for you. Some closed religions have avenues through which you can train and be taught properly how to worship the deities and join the faith. So if you want to use the excuse of “they contacted me” then you should be ready to go through initiations and schooling to back that up.

But if you ignore all of that, and just barrel through with no regard, how much respect are you showing the deities?

“If you say a deity from a closed religion is contacting you to join, they probably aren’t that deity considering they know who is and isn’t welcome to join.”

-added thought from a friend
tumblr user feminism5ever wrote:When people say “culture is meant to be shared” I’m literally like ???? Because that has literally never been the purpose of any culture. Culture is about identity, community and family. It’s about tradition. It is not and has never been about “sharing”.


There's plenty more you can read about cultural appropriation on my tags here and you can also go to culturalappropriationon.tumblr.com to go through their FAQ and blog.
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Naudia Threng
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Naudia Threng »

All the research this person talks about wasn't for religious things. They are all about the cultural appropriation of NATIONS. You can't take data out of context like that. Wicca is about self betterment and being closer with nature. So if I choose personally to use a god from a closed religion and use it in my eclectic practices, I'm pretty sure its not going to cause racism across the world. And I really think this tumble blogger or whatever should check the definition if racism. And its not robbery. That's an ignorant and self revolving thing to say. Because those gods didn't "go to you" they went to someone else thousands of years ago and you just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And for you to say that we should say no to a deity because it might not actually be the deity, well what if it IS deity?

Because again, if I choose personally to use a god from a closed religion and use it in my eclectic practices, I'm pretty sure its not going to cause racism across the world. But the big problem in having is still the how out of context that is. Little Jimmy in his basement is not America. If I choose to follow native American shamanism the proper way, native Americans heads wont explode. Hell! They wouldn't even know. So, unless I rum outside with pamphlets, screaming"COME JOIN THIS *insert closed religion*!" Then I am going to follow who ever I want and no one will be affected except for me. So please, gather some in context evidence.

And actually culture IS indeed meant to be shared. If they had at least a highschool education they would know that. Because if Bob didn't let Jimmy eat popcorn because Jimmy wasn't from Popcorn Land, well that would tick Jimmy off. And Jimmy would tell his friends and they'd tell their friends and then you know what that would cause? Racism. Due to lack of cultural appropriation. You seem to be forgetting that CULTURE IS MORE THAN RELIGION.
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Vesca
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Vesca »

manshin wrote:There's a lot of general responses, so here are just links and bits of articles as to why cultural appropriation is always wrong,
Manshin, can all the quotes you copied/pasted be found on the tumbler link you added at the bottom of your post?
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Sakura Blossom
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Sakura Blossom »

I think that it's important to remember that there are no "wrong" or "right" ways of practice, in the sense that nothing with religion has been proven as a genuine fact. I know I say this often but I think it's something that many people forget and it's important to remind ourselves about this now and then. Now, that's not to say that to someone else something may be considered truth and fact - it very well could be and I know that within our personal practices we believe our way is true. However, because nothing has been shown to be "real" in the sense that it's been "scientifically proven"; there's no way of knowing what truly is and isn't, so to speak. This means that many people will have varying viewpoints on how things should and shouldn't be. Everyone has their reasons for believing what they do and everyone has the right to believe what they do because we all come from different mindsets and upbringings.

So speaking in terms of this, it's important to keep in mind that while some religions that are closed may pertain to a specific culture; not everyone in that culture is going to be feeling the same way about whether or not something can be used. Some may say, as Firebird pointed out, imitation is flattery. This may be the view of some members of this tradition while others may disagree and think it's terrible. It's incredibly important to avoid lumping an entire population together because there is still that micro level of thinking.

A very good example of this is with the usage of a Native American as a mascot. Many people within tribes and even within differing branches of tribes, have varying viewpoints. Some don't care that this is being used and actually like it while others are dead set against it.

So some people may be vehemently against the usage of their deities while others may be in full support.

I'd also like to reiterate the point that it's also about how you go about doing your practice and worship. If you truly think that a God/Goddess from another religion is trying to contact you then I think you have every right to speak and accept working with them. It's how you go about working with them that is key here. If you are respectful of the religion these deities come from and make sure you learn about the older traditions then I think that's alright. You are not insulting the religion because you're truly taking it with respect and interest. If you were doing it because you wanted to seem "hip"; then that is very, very much an issue and would be what I would consider insulting. I view religion as ever-changing and flowing because even Paganism and Christianity have changed overtime.

If anyone has read the book American Gods by Neil Gaiman, the concept shared in that plot line is actually something I identify with and think makes sense despite being a fictional book. The concept was that there was a deity for EVERYTHING and even multiple deities from the same religion (i.e. Odin from Norse) had various forms and there were "more than one". This was because many people's thoughts on their faith change overtime, even within the culture that originally had this religion. Change is honestly inevitable within a society and can impact the way views are shared and held. What I like to take from this is the fact that religion does change and mold which I think is important to remember as well. Though, again, it's highly imperative you practice with respect because that's usually where the issues I've found, take place.

I think both sides of this argument have valid points and it simply becomes a matter of understanding that someone else may share a viewpoint different than yours, as with anything else in religion. It's important to respect this fact and to know that what you believe is important to you. I think we tend to forget this and I think it's important we try to remember that. Having discussions like these is a good thing because it helps to show how different points of view can be; we just have to remember to keep it at the discussion level and not let our personal beliefs affect our anger when we disagree with someone's personal views. Keeping a level-headed, professional and respectful tone is a wonderful way of sharing discussion~
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Heartsong
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Heartsong »

Cultural Identity is how many of us define ourselves. It's why we are always so interested in where we come from. Cultures that close their religion are doing so because they want to protect and preserve their traditions. Cultures that close themselves off are doing the same thing. They want to maintain their identity.

The problem with appropriation, as I see it, is that we as human beings are very fluid with our ideas, especially "new" ones. When individuals that are following an eclectic path adopt a concept or a practice into their own spirituality, they inevitably will alter aspects of it so that it will better fit with their own personal beliefs. At that point, the concept is something entirely different, and, in my opinion, can no longer be called the same practice. To use manshin's example, when an individual attempts to incorporate any part of Shintoism into their practice, what they are actually practicing is no longer Shintoism, because that belief system clearly states that only those born into the Japanese culture are allowed to practice it. For that person to say, however, that what they are doing IS Shintoism, is something that I find to be very disrespectful. Even if that individual does their research, and performs rituals in the "proper" way, what they are doing cannot, and should not, be considered the same as Shintoism. Just by practicing it, they've irrevocably altered it.

That being said, I still believe that our spiritual paths are very personal, and I still think that we should do what we feel to be right for ourselves. It's not for me, or anyone else, to judge another's Personal Gnosis. As Sakura pointed out, we should keep in mind that differing viewpoints should still be treated with the same respect that we would like our own to receive.

And considering that we define ourselves very much by our cultural and spiritual identities, I find that reducing the desire to preserve religious and cultural practices to a comparison of snack food exchanges in the school cafeteria to be an inconsiderate oversimplification of a complex and sensitive issue. I think this is a discussion that has a great deal of merit. Both sides of the debate can have an intelligent and thoughtful conversation on this topic. No need to bring popcorn into it.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by manshin »

Vesca wrote:
manshin wrote:There's a lot of general responses, so here are just links and bits of articles as to why cultural appropriation is always wrong,
Manshin, can all the quotes you copied/pasted be found on the tumbler link you added at the bottom of your post?
Yes, they're all in my tag that u linked at the bottom.

I will respond later when I get to my computer.

I find it so incredibly disrespectful that there are people attempting to talk over others who belong to closed traditions. And yes, those quotes also are referring to the closed traditions THAT BELONG TO THOSE CULTURES.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by SnowCat »

I would not presume to appropriate the sacred customs of another culture. That being said, similarities can be found among many cultures. Learning about the customs in order to understand the spirituality of a given culture, contributes to a healthy spiritual ecosystem. I would not ask to participate in a sacred sweat lodge ceremony, but I would ask respectful questions regarding the background and purpose of such ceremonies. History has shown that closed so cities and closed ecosystems are equally at risk of extinction.

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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Sakura Blossom »

I'm mobile at the moment so I can't say too much but another thought I forgot to mention before is that I think if someone takes the time to research it too, it can also help spread awareness and understanding of another culture. I think that touches on what Snow is talking about as well and if anything, I think this would actually combat racism and all the other negative aspects that could be the result of cultural appropriation. Again, this brings us back to the idea of being at the micro level vs. the macro level because not everyone is going to be taking this religion and claiming that it's all theirs and regarding it with disrespect. I think we need more people who are respectful and truly wish to learn more about these other religions or to adapt practices of their own because it can help with understanding the struggles of others. Plus, there are practices within certain close religions that are wonderful ideas to live by and as Heartsong said, once you adapt a practice into your own it is no longer that other religion.

I think as long as we remain respectful of everyone's viewpoints and don't act like the religious practices we use or the deities we work with were our own creation and give the credit to the original practice then there is no disrespect being offered.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Xiao Rong »

Alright, everyone. I understand that this can be a very sensitive discussion, and I'm going to put in a reminder to keep this conversation respectful.

I'm noticing that for the most part this conversation is happening in the hypothetical, and so I am finding that a lot of people here are talking past each other -- where Manshin, you seem to be talking about closed cultures, and others are discussing much more hypothetically about "what if" one were to get a call from a different deity (despite the fact that most people here actually do draw inspiration from "open" practices, like Kemeticism, Wicca, Hellenic polytheism, Celtic mythology, etc. I have really rarely come across anyone here who IS trying to appropriate closed cultures)

If you belong to a closed culture, you are absolutely welcome to share your opinion of how others appropriating your practice are harmful. But I would not take others expressing their dissent as "talking over" anyone else. We have a lot of discussions on EUTM where people disagree and where members try to educate each other.

Azure Lily, I will also caution you that your remarks are also starting to get out of hand.
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Please, don't do this guys

Post by mrsdavid1975 »

I am of every ( almost haha ) people so I use what was handed down to me mostly from elders.


My heritage is very mixed. I have mostly Muskogee , ani yunwiya ( anisahoni ... Panther or blue holly clan ) out of Tennessee and Georgia Along with a bit of Choctaw. I'm also Irish, Scottish, and Swedish. So ya I'm a mutt lol.

Anyway. " the blood remembers ".


...

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Chalice
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Chalice »

I find this is such a 'hysterical' fad at the moment, to have a Tumblr crusade against all the evil people appropriating.

It has so many hallmarks of when someone becomes a vegan, and goes on a self righteous campaign!

I think in some ways, this political correctness, is itself a 'white washing' of colonialism.

Not to mention this whole thing is 'American-centric'.

Oh noes, can't burn Sage... give me a break.

Growing up, it was actually a positive thing to be taught Aboriginal culture, to make their art and ceremonial Sticks. To use a Woomera. To eat Indigenous foods.

Kinda helped that my neighbours and school friends were Indigenous from many tribes and islands in Australia.

I tell you there were ZERO Aboriginal people trying to police me for appropriating culture. If anything they were proud to share it. Just as Indigenous Australians spoke English and lived a modern 20th century existence.

This appropriations stuff is a Tumblr hysterical campaign.

I'm so annoyed by it. Especially since it would be a great thing for White Australia to appropriate more of Aboriginal customs and culture and everything else. They culture is dying out!

Soon, the culture will just be in crisp clean museum shelves for the Tumblr PC police to run Anthropoloigcal tours through.

Edit: tl:dr - just watch the latest South Park. Season 19, Episode 1.
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Vesca
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Vesca »

Chalice wrote: Edit: tl:dr - just watch the latest South Park. Season 19, Episode 1.
There are really 19 seasons of South Park? Jeez.
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by evil ed »

If I call to a Deity, and they answer, it's between me and them. If I am called by a Deity, it's between me and them.
If they answer, or start the communication, then this is not closed to me.
Absolutely no disrespect meant, but 'nuff said.

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Siona
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Re: Please, don't do this guys

Post by Siona »

Chalice wrote:This appropriations stuff is a Tumblr hysterical campaign.
I mean, it's really not always the case. (And personally, I'm so tired of seeing Tumblr used as an insult...) Yeah, sometimes the whole appropriation thing goes too far, but it's also a real issue a lot of groups face. Yes, sure, I know these examples are about to be 'American-centric' but there are tribes here who are tired of seeing their sacred and traditional items and ways taken and watered down by people who don't give a darn about the cultural context. There are tribes here who don't want their religion taken by anyone outside the tribe, there are people trying to educate others on what they want to share, and what needs to be respected - what aspects are considered restricted. Again, these are not white people trying to be all PC or whatever you want to call it, these are actual native people asking for some of their more sacred and honored traditions to be respected by outsiders.

Also, as I said, this certainly doesn't apply to every culture. Not all North American tribes are as 'closed' as others, not all non-NA natives might have the same views, etc. That's to be expected. There are many, many open cultures. However, just because some groups are more open than others, doesn't mean that's always the case.
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