The rede and other pagan/witch ethics

[loona wynd]

One of the things I have found over the years is that while many books on Wicca and Witchcraft try and get people to believe that the Wiccan rede is the only ethical concept in witchcraft, and that is far from true. The ethics of many non wiccan styled witches actually falls outside the concept of the rede, and when this is brought up many people are shocked to find that there are witches who don't follow the rede. After all many of the books say that if you don't follow the rede you aren't a real witch.

The fact that there are other ethical concepts can be a shocking finding. I know that when I found out that there were other ethical practices aside from the rede I sort of felt mislead and lied to by the elders who wrote the books I had read on witchcraft and Wicca. This thread is here to discuss the rede as well as other ethical concepts and practices found in different pagan religions.

I know that there are witches on this forum like myself who no longer follow the rede as their ethical and moral guidelines. This is a place where we can discuss the different ethical concept we follow and how they impact our lives. Some of the ethical and moral guidelines are more difficult to follow than others, but like any ethical and moral guidelines they are guides to help us think about our actions and the consequences of our actions.

The rede can be discussed here freely. The rede is a valid moral and ethical guideline that many witches do follow. However this thread is also here to discuss the other ethical concepts out there that witches may or may not follow. The rede is just one of many out there. It is my hope that through the discussions in this thread people will come to realize just how different ethics and morals can be, and you can still be a good person and strive to live a positive life that may also result in doing minimal or no harm to others.

[loona wynd]

I am going to start off by mentioning the Nine Nobel Virtues and the 12 Thews found in Germanic Paganism and Germanic witchcraft based paths.

The Nine Nobel Virtues are:

• Courage-Strength to face the challenges given to you and to know when to ask for help
• Truth-Be true to yourself and speak the truth when ever possible
• Honor-worth of your family and yourself-living respectfully of yourself and others
• Fidelity-Being Loyal to your friends and allies-Don't give loyalty freely
• Discipline-self control-seeing things to the end-shaping and changing behaviors
• Hospitality-Making a guest feel at home and offering to help when you are a guest
• Industriousness-Hard work-Maintaining oneself and ones family
• Self Reliance-Do what you can on your own and know where you need help and when to ask for help
• Perseverance-Refusal to give up-Trying again and again-knowing you may need to start over from scratch but not being discouraged by it

While the nine nobel virtues are generally agreed upon by most Heathens/Germaic/Norse Pagans the Thews may differ from group to culture (depending on which Germanic culture your path is based upon) and example set of the The twelve Thews are:

• Boldness-Bravery and courage in the face of adversity
• Steadfastness-Tenacity-refusal to give up
• Troth-Fealty, faith and fidelity to ones family, friends, and tribe/kindred or group
• Givefullness- Generosity-Giving of yourself when you can to those who need it more
• Guestliness- Hospitality-being kind to guests-not taking advantage of your hosts
• Sooth-Speaking the truth-avoidance of even small lies
• Wrake- Justice-drive to fix the wrong done to ones family or friends
• Even Headedness- Recognition that those of the opposite sex are equal
• Friendship- treating those you call friend as if they were family
• Freedom- self reliance, perseverance and taking responsibility for ones actions
• Wisdom- Adherance to the wisdom of the Germanic paths and fitting it into modern life
• Workhardiness- The ability to work hard

You can find more information on the Nine Nobel Virtues and the Twelve Thews here

I wrote an extensive post in my Grimoire on how I try to work with the Nine Nobel Virtues in my life. In that post I included where I need to work on them and which ones are the most difficult for me. You can find that post here

[ravensilverbear]

From what read and please don't get me wrong sounds the same as the rede but written in a different style or maybe I read the rede and what you wrote was what I found but I think it all can go hand in hand and that the values u set is what makes u the best you want to be same goes for me

[loona wynd]

From what read and please don't get me wrong sounds the same as the rede but written in a different style

The rede is a Wiccan virtue while the Nine Nobel virtues are Germanic/Norse/Heathen in origin. The cultures they come from are completely different. The rede does not fit in with the Nine Nobel virtues. I say that because the Rede as portrayed by the books on Wicca and witchcraft does not allow the use of baneful magic as a form of defensive magic. The rede is "An it harm none do what ye will". Which means according to those books you can't use spells to cause pain or harm to those who have wronged you. In fact in most books on Wicca and witchcraft both mirror spells and binding spells are considered to be a gray area and basically are not really thought of as good spells to use.

The nine noble virtues do allow for that. For example in Norse culture as a part of defending honor you were expected to take revenge on those who wronged your honor. This is seen clearly in the Eddas and the sagas. So a witch in Germanic style witchcraft can cast a spell that would be considered a hex or curse by the rede but is actually an offensive spell to be defensive.

An example of what I mean is that if some one was causing my loved ones any myself a lot of emotional stress and other issues I could cast a bind rune spell to have them receive the exact same feelings until they did what was needed to fix the problem they caused. The spell is sending them pain, stress and personal issues, but its also doing so to teach a lesson so that they get what is coming to them based on what their actions did to another. Its an offensive spell, but it also works defensively as the issue will not return. You get what you need and they learned a lesson. It was a hex but it also brought about the solution needed.

The idea about the honor and loyalty is that you do what ever you can to protect those who are close to you. This can be in any form that you personally feel is welcome to the situation. If you feel a spell to get the person to move away would have the effect than that is what you would do, if however you felt that sending them bad luck and difficult issues that would be another avenue you can use. Basically with the nine noble virtues so long as you maintain your family honor, personal honor, and loyalty to them through your actions you can go ahead an do it. If however you feel that the actions would dishonor some one than its not something you would do.

or maybe I read the rede and what you wrote was what I found but I think it all can go hand in hand

The rede says nothing about honor, truth, loyalty and much more. The rede is a simple statement of advice. If you understand it as the books teach than you can't do anything that would cause undue harm to another. That is what the books teach the rede to be-blanket permission to do anything that doesn't cause harm to another and no permission to do spells that would harm another.

However if you understand the rede to be advice that doesn't prohibit harmful spells and work than it could go hand in hand, but its not the same at all. They come from different cultures and different world views. So they are not the same and never would be the same, nor should they ever be equated as the same. One set focuses on honor and being an honorable person while the other is just a set of advice. So they really are not compatible and comparable in that case.

that the values u set is what makes u the best you want to be same goes for me

What do you mean here?

Also would you be willing to share and discuss your understanding of the rede?

[TwilightDancer]

Being an eclectic witch I tend to do my own thing. I follow a general rule of Karma. (times three)
That's not threefold.

I believe that what I put out effects me in three different ways-In mind, body and spirit.
If I were to go out of my way to hurt someone, I would have guilt. That guilt would spiral into overwhelming sadness which would affect me physically. Being physically sick hinders my spiritual growth. Feeling bad for hindering my own spiritual growth would further my guilt and keep the cycle continuing.

Believing this way allows me to protect myself freely, should the need arise-offensively or defensively.

Blessed Be

[Chalice]

I find that a written group of ethics enforced by a group becomes meaningless when people who say they follow, do the opposite when they put it into action.

This is especially so when someone says their religion says one thing, and they insist on voting for politicians that do the opposite. The actions of the government/politicians has more impact on our lives and the environment than any set of ethics tables does.

My point: I judge you not by your code of ethics, but by what you actually do.

If you say you follow Jesus, but then vote for politicians who attack the poor, the sick and immigrants... then I don't think much of your "following Jesus".

I wanna see results!
I wanna judge the tree by it's fruit!

[TwilightDancer]

The Rede is a very valid ethical code. It's just not for me. It's too limiting in my opinion.




Blessed Be

[random417]

The rede comes from Gardner, and iirc, was heavily influenced by his association with Thelema and Crowley, where the Law as it's called there comes in 2 parts:
1: Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
2: Love is the Law, love under Will

Now, the idea here isn't will as in whatever you want, but Will as in your True Will, or direction from your higher self. Inherent here is an idea that no 2 true wills can be in conflict. Just a talking point

[loona wynd]

The Rede is a very valid ethical code. It's just not for me. It's too limiting in my opinion.
Blessed Be

What do you think is limiting about the rede?

[TwilightDancer]

The Rede is a very valid ethical code. It's just not for me. It's too limiting in my opinion.
Blessed Be

What do you think is limiting about the rede?

In my opinion, The Rede limits the actions one can take to defend themselves. There are alot of people in this world, and not all of them are good. If someone hurt a loved one of mine I would obviously want to intervene. When taking defensive action it's sometimes impossible to "harm none". The Rede makes you feel guilty about your actions. I follow Karma(generally speaking). What I put out will affect me. If I'm protecting someone I love I don't view it as a bad thing. I am able to have a clear concious this way.
I hope that answers your question.


Blessed Be

[Siona]

When taking defensive action it's sometimes impossible to "harm none".

Although I know it's a popular interpretation, the Rede doesn't necessarily say "harm none." The Rede says "an it harm none, do what thou wilt." (An, in this case, is an old form of if.) So it is very possible to take the interpretation of if what you're planning to do doesn't cause harm, then go for it... if it does? Not actually addressed if you look at the rede that way, but some add on the line "if it causes harm, do what you must." I think it's also worth noting that rede means advice, it's not a law, so even if one follows the stricter "harm none" approach, there may be times when one chooses not to follow that advice, because of the circumstances of their situation.

All that said, I don't actually follow the rede myself, not specifically anyway. I'm not a Wiccan, so it's just not really part of my practice. Neither is the threefold law, or similar ideas. Concepts like reciprocity, hospitality, and moderation come up often in my practice, but there's nothing specific really laid out. I just try to do what's right, and what's right for one situation may not be right for another.