Heathen communication style compared to neo-pagan.

[presentcharisma]

Juniper this is too funny!!

"The statement is conditioned with one or
two phrases such as "in my opinion" meant to allow their opposite room for compromise in the
event of disagreement. The Ásatrúar, upon hearing this, assumes that because the Wiccan has
conditioned his statement, that it is loosely held and subject to revision or correction. He or she
replies very directly that he feels the Wiccan's position is incorrect and supports evidence as to
why. Up to this point, each party has acted exactly as their community standards lead them to
react. The Ásatrúar expects the Wiccan to either accept the reasoning or to refute it. The Wiccan is
simply stunned. He or she feels they have made a polite statement and had it answered in a rude
and disrespectful manner. At this point, he has already decided the conversation is without purpose
and attempts to end it by agreeing to the validity of the Ásatrúar's opinion, but restating his own,
this time even more conditionally. This is a common way to end such a conversation in the Wiccan
community, but the Ásatrúar sees it in an entirely different light. Smelling rhetorical blood, he or
she strongly dismisses the Wiccan's opinion and even more strongly restates his own. The Wiccan
now feels insulted beyond tolerance. He replies angrily, not concerning the original subject of the
conversation, but chastising the Ásatrúar's behavior. The Ásatrúar is shocked by this reaction and
asks what the problem is. Assuming the problem is obvious to everyone involved, the Wiccan turns
and leaves. The two part, the Wiccan convinced the Ásatrúar is a rude and insensitive jerk trying to
force his opinions on others, the Ásatrúar convinced he is the victim of yet another attempt at
politically correct censorship by someone who can't defend his own beliefs."

because it almost EXACLTY describes our discussion today.
I will post again to explain further my opinion on it because my computer is freaking out and i can't see what I am typing.

[presentcharisma]

Ok, now that my computer is normal I will continue.

First of all, I do not consider myself wiccan. I don't know enough about wiccans or pagens, or any other titles to consider myself to be any.

I do want to say that I disagree with the discription of why people say "in my opinion". For me, its because I have delt with very intollerant people all my life. I was one of them. WIth my life experience, I have found that when discussing an opinion, its important to not state it as fact, but merely as opinion. IF I would describe myself as anything i would say zen budhism. Ant It is my belief that when I get into the mindframe of "i am right and she is wrong" I engage my ego and it becomes much more than a discussion. IT becomes a psychological war to the death (when you identify yourself with an idea like "i am christian" you do whatever you can to defend it because you don't want to kill the "i am" . It becomes a chance to puff up my personal belief as "right" and knock the other as "wrong". The more wrong the other person is, the more right it makes me.
I used to be the LOUDEST and most opinionated debater. I would get FIRED up about politics etc. I would get such a RUSH about what i thought was "merely good debates" when they were rely just ego identification and defending the false "i am". I pissed off a lot of people in my time. And I find that I learn more from my conversations with this in mind.
In my personal journey to grow spiritually, I had to force myself to dis engage in things that trigger it for me. (because i cannot control it, i am not the budda, and i am not enlightened) I cut out politics, I cut out friendships that triggered negative reaction, and I have tried to learn to not get caught up in debate. So saying "in my opinon" for me does not mean I am trying to find a back door in case I loose.. its respecting that the other person I speak with believes differently, and ITs not healthy spiritually to fight it.

As far as which communication style is better, I dont' feel that is important. What is important is comassion and recognizing the other persons style and adapting your way of communicating so they hear what you say and it doesn't become a reactive conversation. I was in sales for 10 years, (just got out due to the negative nature of being obsessed with goals, but that is a whole nother topic LOL) and we learned about various personality types. Learning your personality was a benifit so you can learn how to improve yourself and soften the negative aspects and be compassionate when others are unaware of their negative sides etc. I learned not to be annoyed at the anal retentive and just to laugh at it as ocd and a cute personality style that I wish i had more of.
We cannot control how others communicate with us, but we can control how we communicate with others. If the topic is to learn, then its best to speak soflty so our message is not clouded by the presentation of it.

[JuniperBerry]

Heh. I guess it was a good idea that this was stickied.

Ok, now that my computer is normal I will continue.

Mine was having the same issues earlier.

I do want to say that I disagree with the discription of why people say "in my opinion". For me, its because I have delt with very intollerant people all my life. I was one of them. WIth my life experience, I have found that when discussing an opinion, its important to not state it as fact, but merely as opinion.

What I argue, though, isn't an opinion. It's fact...or as near fact as one can get with the available research. I don't say "IMO, shamans used a very in depth and delicate process with which to enter a trance and eat a disease", because it's not my opinion. It's an investigated and documented practice. This consensus of appropriate behavior and practice, that has worked for centuries and is agreed upon by various cultures, holds more weight and value to me.

I'm not saying "Dogs are better than cats are- you're just an idiot for thinking otherwise!" That would be opinion and I would be ridiculous for saying such. Asking you why you're personal opinion of healing energy should be considered just as valuable as an historical and culturally significant one is a legitimate question.

IF I would describe myself as anything i would say zen budhism. Ant It is my belief that when I get into the mindframe of "i am right and she is wrong" I engage my ego and it becomes much more than a discussion. IT becomes a psychological war to the death (when you identify yourself with an idea like "i am christian" you do whatever you can to defend it because you don't want to kill the "i am" . It becomes a chance to puff up myI used to be the LOUDEST and most opinionated debater. I would get FIRED up personal belief as "right" and knock the other as "wrong". The more wrong the other person is, the more right it makes me.

Again, I'm not right. It’s not my opinion that shamantic healing was performed a certain way. It’s not a mindset of “I’m right, she’s wrong”, it’s mindset that there is a cultural consensus about healing praxis and that that accepted consensus by generations of people holds more weight than what you’re opinion is. It’s a mindset of “why should I disregard a culture’s (almost globally) system for yours?”

It seems far more egotistical, to me, to assume that as an individual one’s personal opinion and development of a practice should measure up to one that has taken thousands of yeas to perfect and refine. A system that people have lived and died for. I don’t own the system that developed that belief, I didn’t contribute to its wisdom or experience. I am not personally right in anything.

about politics etc. I would get such a RUSH about what i thought was "merely good debates" when they were rely just ego identification and defending the false "i am". I pissed off a lot of people in my time. And I find that I learn more from my conversations with this in mind.

Now imagine someone came into a political forum with a personal interpretation of who really wrote the constitution and what it stood for? Would you get personal satisfaction in declaring the facts? Would you feel personal ownership of the facts and pump your fist because that ownership was justified? Or would you see it as justifiably standing behind the agreed upon facts and consensus of you and several million other people?

In my personal journey to grow spiritually, I had to force myself to dis engage in things that trigger it for me. (because i cannot control it, i am not the budda, and i am not enlightened) I cut out politics, I cut out friendships that triggered negative reaction, and I have tried to learn to not get caught up in debate. So saying "in my opinon" for me does not mean I am trying to find a back door in case I loose.. its respecting that the other person I speak with believes differently, and ITs not healthy spiritually to fight it.

I respect when other’s have different beliefs. I have friends from many different walks of spirituality. I don’t accept, though, that personal opinion outside of a system should outweigh a communities understanding of the proper way to do things. And, yes, all cultures had societal rules and boundaries and expectations of proper behavior and worship. That’s what civilization is. I feel free to challenge these opinions, because that’s what order is. We are accountable to each other , not only to ourselves. You are accountable to every healer when you determine what healing is, you define them and by comparison, place value on them.

As far as which communication style is better, I dont' feel that is important. What is important is comassion and recognizing the other persons style and adapting your way of communicating so they hear what you say and it doesn't become a reactive conversation. I was in sales for 10 years, (just got out due to the negative nature of being obsessed with goals, but that is a whole nother topic LOL) and we learned about various personality types. Learning your personality was a benifit so you can learn how to improve yourself and soften the negative aspects and be compassionate when others are unaware of their negative sides etc. I learned not to be annoyed at the anal retentive and just to laugh at it as ocd and a cute personality style that I wish i had more of.
We cannot control how others communicate with us, but we can control how we communicate with others. If the topic is to learn, then its best to speak soflty so our message is not clouded by the presentation of it.

I freely admit I lost my cool today. While I can often be assertive and blunt, I usually am not so aggressive and insulting. (I don’t think.) I do apologize for that.

[presentcharisma]

"What I argue, though, isn't an opinion. It's fact..."

I don't think you can take one culture's training and staple that as fact and the other cultures training as Non fact because it doen't jive with the origonal culture.
My entire post about communicaton etc was not refering to our specific conversation. I was just laughing at how THIS conversation mirrored what went down today. But lets continue anyways. But please read my post with an UN related thinking to our origonal conversation and think of it as a new point in itself. If I state fact, I say it as fact. And if I state something that is done another way in another culture, but it is the way I prefer, I will say "in my opinion I prefer". There is nothing wrong with stating fact when it is fact. But there is something wrong with assuming your facts are the only ones. There is evidence to back up any belief you want to adopt to. for instance... if i want to believe that there is abundance in this economy.. I could google wealth, abundance, fortune, etc. and I will see things that prove to me "my truth" of what is. But If I google Starvation, poverty, foreclosure, I will find evidence to point to the opposing view. No single one is right... they are both reflections of the economy.

"Asking you why you're personal opinion of healing energy should be considered just as valuable as an historical and culturally significant one is a legitimate question."

you didn't ask that. You said it was lazy to believe that way. And I welcome the question. I don't consider myself to be a great healer, but I do believe in life force energy and universal energy,. I know that through meditation and practice we can learn to use it. I do feel energy and send positive light to situations. (however weak my energy may be without any formal training) But I am actually taking reiki so I can learn how to do it properly and more productively. I have my first class this sunday. I am looking forward to learning more of the way it came about and how it can be done in a better way. I hope the training intensifies what energy I do have.

I am going to continue this in another post again because the screen is tweaking again.

[presentcharisma]

"Again, I'm not right. It’s not my opinion that shamantic healing was performed a certain way. It’s not a mindset of “I’m right, she’s wrong”, it’s mindset that there is a cultural consensus about healing praxis and that that accepted consensus by generations of people holds more weight than what you’re opinion is. It’s a mindset of “why should I disregard a culture’s (almost globally) system for yours?”

I NEVER disregarded shamanatic healing. There are MANY ways to bake cake that go back years... does that mean if you had a recepie for a 200 yr old cake, and I found a recepie for a 100 yr old cake, your cake is real cake and my cake is fake? And what I described as healing is simply what i know of it. I never claimed to be a healing teacher. It doesn't discredit any other form of healing. And why assume that what i describe is "my opinion"? I would never ask you to disregard a cultures system.

"It seems far more egotistical, to me, to assume that as an individual one’s personal opinion and development of a practice should measure up to one that has taken thousands of yeas to perfect and refine. A system that people have lived and died for. I don’t own the system that developed that belief, I didn’t contribute to its wisdom or experience. I am not personally right in anything. "

My personal development is aclectic and that includes practices that were done for hundreads of years. I don't need to adopt to 1 belief 100% and shut out all others. That is what causes egos. That is what caused the nazi's to kill thousands of people. Again, I never told you shamanatic healing was worse or wrong.. I am sure its much more powerful than what i do. (because i don't even know if what I do can be considered healing yet) But shamanatic healing is not the only method.

"Now imagine someone came into a political forum with a personal interpretation of who really wrote the constitution and what it stood for? Would you get personal satisfaction in declaring the facts? "

IF you clearly hear what I say, and read my words, you will see that your example is not relevant. It does not equate the situation.

"I respect when other’s have different beliefs. I have friends from many different walks of spirituality. I don’t accept, though, that personal opinion outside of a system should outweigh a communities understanding of the proper way to do things."

so for hundreads of years of christians persecuting non christians its ok because its an old system that is backed by community understanding?

"And, yes, all cultures had societal rules and boundaries and expectations of proper behavior and worship. That’s what civilization is. I feel free to challenge these opinions, because that’s what order is. We are accountable to each other , not only to ourselves. You are accountable to every healer when you determine what healing is, you define them and by comparison, place value on them. "

NOt if its done in many ways by many cultures. I do not take the egoic stance that my way the only way. So I do not "define all healers" with one method.

ANd I DO take your apology. ANd as I said before, I hope you didn't find this specific conversation about communication was connected to our conversaion or a way to bring up negative feelings. It was my way to bring mild humor and understanding to what had happened to us.
Have a good night

[JuniperBerry]

The reason I brought up the original conversation is because you're using that one instance to base an opinion on this accompanying thread. I'm not here to discuss shamanism; I'm discussing how I communicate and using that as a example as it was the most relevent one between us.

I don't think you can take one culture's training and staple that as fact and the other cultures training as Non fact because it doen't jive with the origonal culture.

You're not a culture. I respect other cultures and their traditions, as evidence by the Native American Spirituality thread. Any modern heathen worth her salt knows that UPG is pointless. Though a religion of individuals, it's also a religion of community, and the consensus of that community is what matters. In our communication styles, we don't argue opinion- we keep them to ourselves. Heathens know they have to back up what they say, and I usually refrain from opinion type threads and if I do go into one I say "In my tradition" (notice I don't say in my opinion).

My entire post about communicaton etc was not refering to our specific conversation. I was just laughing at how THIS conversation mirrored what went down today. But lets continue anyways. But please read my post with an UN related thinking to our origonal conversation and think of it as a new point in itself. If I state fact, I say it as fact. And if I state something that is done another way in another culture, but it is the way I prefer, I will say "in my opinion I prefer". There is nothing wrong with stating fact when it is fact. But there is something wrong with assuming your facts are the only ones. There is evidence to back up any belief you want to adopt to. for instance... if i want to believe that there is abundance in this economy.. I could google wealth, abundance, fortune, etc. and I will see things that prove to me "my truth" of what is. But If I google Starvation, poverty, foreclosure, I will find evidence to point to the opposing view. No single one is right... they are both reflections of the economy.

You're obviously not a reconstructionist. Recon involves never stating anything as fact until you have gone over available sources with a fine-tooth comb, cross-referencing and finding a solid basis for the belief in that culture.

you didn't ask that. You said it was lazy to believe that way. And I welcome the question. I don't consider myself to be a great healer, but I do believe in life force energy and universal energy,. I know that through meditation and practice we can learn to use it. I do feel energy and send positive light to situations. (however weak my energy may be without any formal training) But I am actually taking reiki so I can learn how to do it properly and more productively. I have my first class this sunday. I am looking forward to learning more of the way it came about and how it can be done in a better way. I hope the training intensifies what energy I do have.

You also jumped into the middle of a somewhat heated conversation already.

[JuniperBerry]

I NEVER disregarded shamanatic healing. There are MANY ways to bake cake that go back years... does that mean if you had a recepie for a 200 yr old cake, and I found a recepie for a 100 yr old cake, your cake is real cake and my cake is fake? And what I described as healing is simply what i know of it. I never claimed to be a healing teacher. It doesn't discredit any other form of healing. And why assume that what i describe is "my opinion"? I would never ask you to disregard a cultures system.

When I question someone to explain further than 'IMO' it's because I want to see and hear about the recipe not just hear how yummy they think the cake is.

My personal development is aclectic and that includes practices that were done for hundreads of years. I don't need to adopt to 1 belief 100% and shut out all others. That is what causes egos. That is what caused the nazi's to kill thousands of people. Again, I never told you shamanatic healing was worse or wrong.. I am sure its much more powerful than what i do. (because i don't even know if what I do can be considered healing yet) But shamanatic healing is not the only method.

*Sigh* Recon doesn't equal nazism. Recon is having all the ingredients to an award-winning recipe, to use your metaphor. A specific recipe is created so that all ingredients work in harmony together to create a fulfilling and tasty whole. You can rewrite a recipe, mix ingredients from other recipes, but it won't be that award-winning cake from the original. It can still be good- but (away from metaphor) Frigga can't be fully understood outside of her mythology.

so for hundreads of years of christians persecuting non christians its ok because its an old system that is backed by community understanding?

I'm saying that Jared Laughner can't go blow a congresswoman's head in because he feels like it's the right thing to do. I'm saying that person can't say this is they right way to do things because they think it's right. I'm saying that if everyone did that, it would be chaos. If one person has a view, that the community agrees upon and moves forward with (much like Christianity), then that is the responsibility of the community. One individual can not take over what a commuity means and stands for. One eclectic doesn't have the right to say what a myth or a god meant to a people.

NOt if its done in many ways by many cultures. I do not take the egoic stance that my way the only way. So I do not "define all healers" with one method.

Whatever you write online, people see. People may even think that's the way to do it. Some might even see that book you posted by the plastic shaman and think that's NA spirituality.
I don't care if a person is eclectic, but be a respnsible eclectic. 'Imo' doesn't cut it. You should be able to back up why, and how, and what. That's all that is asked for when I don't stop at "my opinion"
.

ANd I DO take your apology. ANd as I said before, I hope you didn't find this specific conversation about communication was connected to our conversaion or a way to bring up negative feelings. It was my way to bring mild humor and understanding to what had happened to us.
Have a good night

Well, I thought you'r oringinal reply was funny, and was ready to just chalk it all up as a bad day on the boards. I'm still willing to do that. And in no way is this personal. Recons and eclectics always figth like cats and dogs.

[presentcharisma]

I am going to avoid copy and pasting since its gotten too long for the "reply tweaking" to handle. But i will say this.

IF you want a specific answer.. than be a big girl and ask for what you want specificily.
And learn to seperate ALL TOPICS. You are replying here with 4 seperate conversations on other threads. This topic is about communication. DO you understand how boards work? Reply under the topic that you wish to continue. I am not going to fish through all of our posts together to properly reply.

WIth the rest of it, I am not sure anymore what your stance is. You are talking in circles. I will just say that I am not some dumb kid who decided to do something that i thought was cool and unusual. I am not some typical american who adopts "trendy" ideology and doesn't study and meditate on the roots of my beliefs. I came to the board to Learn. Spirutual people do not attack.. and nomatter how many ways you try to explain your communication style, it doesn't make you right. Just because you found info to back up your belief, it doesn't make it right or superior to the other or the only one. And just because a practice is old, it dosent make it better than a new one. Just because its backed by commuity doesnt make it right either (remember the whole whites and blacks drinking fountin thing?)

I am trying to cleanse my mind and fill it with pure things, and arguing only triggers the ego. I have tried to tell you this politely. Be intelligent and learn to speak in a non agressive way. Then learn to apply comments to the current topic.

I am not going to continue this conversation anymore with you. It is Childish. I am too old for this type of behavior.

[JuniperBerry]

*Sigh*

I've already said that our first encounter online was under less than desirable conditions. I have also apologized for this. Outside of that encounter, I have been explaining the communication technique I have wherein 'IMO' and other forms of passive communication appear as ill-defined concepts and beliefs. I haven't strayed from this point. I'm not trying to ask you any type of question...I'm trying to keep up with you since you've been posting more than one reply at a time- and defending myself and my technique against statements you've been making, while remaining within the context of how I communicate and from what stance.

You posted in my thread. I don't even know why at this point, other than to tell me how spiritually evolved you are since you let go of ego, and if I were as spritually evolved, I would learn to communicate as you have. I don't really care how you've cleared your mind. I don't really care what your triggers are. I don't really care what you think of me. If you want to talk about those things start your own topic. You're obviously having several problems understanding the concepts I'm explaining to you, and keep throwing out absurd arguments about blacks and whites and christian conversion. If anyone isn't understanding the context of this topic, it's you.

Claiming something is childish, while throwing a temper-tantrum- does not an adult make.

[presentcharisma]

learn to read.

[JuniperBerry]

Ok, really? Couldn't the fighting have been over with yesterday?


Since I didn't reply to your initial post with statements like "That's neat-o!", "Wow! You've really got it together!, "I see what you mean and I completely agree with you!" it must mean that I couldn't have possibly read it right. Because if I had, I would be in awe of your totally awesome spiritual way of letting go of ego. Or I would see that your use of 'IMO' is so much better and wiser than everyone else's use of it. If I had read it right, I wouldn't feel the need to maybe not agree with it, and reassert why I don't accept it as an answer on it's own, and how my way is still a worthy communication style. No, if I had read it right, you and I would be in bestfriend lollypop land, holding hands, and talking about how impressed I was with your reply.


I see why you bring up ego all.the.time.