Why no talk of demons?

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AzothPendragon
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Why no talk of demons?

Post by AzothPendragon »

"Spirits, Ghosts, Paranormal Events
For conversations and questions about hauntings and spirit visitations. This is not the place to talk about demons. In fact, this whole board isn't the place for it. A Christian site is a better place for that. "

So, in the TOS, I see no rule saying not to talk about demons, but in this forum description, it says not to talk about demons on this site anywhere.

I have already read several posts that talk about demons, and one is a thread started where the OP says that s/he "works" with demons.

There are many different definitions of demons, including fallen angels which are actually good, not just the typical Christian definition.

Personally, I think we should be free to talk about demons on this site, or at least give us a reason why we are not supposed to.

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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by Heartsong »

Hello Azoth,

We here at EUTM prefer not to have demons being discussed on the board because, in our experience, it attracts negative energy to the forum, AND the kind of crowd we would really rather not have here. If you want to have discussion about them, there are other boards that would welcome it.
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AzothPendragon
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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by AzothPendragon »

Heartsong wrote:Hello Azoth,

We here at EUTM prefer not to have demons being discussed on the board because, in our experience, it attracts negative energy to the forum, AND the kind of crowd we would really rather not have here. If you want to have discussion about them, there are other boards that would welcome it.
Can you define what you mean by demon? goodnevil

Also, I see several posts talking about demons, and they are not being deleted. One I responded to was someone worried about a demonic attack, and I personally think this should be allowed, and it apparently is.

I see why you wouldn't want people to talk about how they summon evil harmful entities, which I am guessing is the definition of demons you mean.

Some Christians consider all ghost demons, and all the gods us "heathens" worship or "work with" demons. It's a rather broad definition. Some Christians also consider Nephilim demons. Some people believe demons are just metaphors that have no existence.

The origin of the word: demon does not even mean evil spirit. :evil:

Here is the etymology:

c. 1200, from Latin daemon "spirit," from Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide" (see tide (n.)).

Used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and Vulgate for "god of the heathen" and "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii:31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight."

The original mythological sense is sometimes written daemon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates was a daimonion, a "divine principle or inward oracle." His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Algol.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=demon

(emphasis added by me)

Another question? What about Satanism? :twisted:

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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by Heartsong »

Can you define what you mean by demon? goodnevil
Yep. I mean demon.

Azoth, neither I nor any of the other moderators are interested in splitting hairs with you. While the amount of thought you've put into your post is appreciated, this is not up for debate (a decision not made by myself or other mods, but by the board's owner, Starwitch). When I said that we'd prefer to not discuss demons, that is precisely what I meant. And what I mean is, demons as they are both commonly and classically understood, the definition that most people are going to understand and interpret as demonic. Also, this is a Paganism and Witchcraft forum. While we have areas that topics branching off from those two subjects can be discussed, the exchange of information on them are our primary goal here. A discussion on the history or nature of demons really don't have much to do with either of those topics.

A secondary objective is to promote good will and thoughtfulness towards paganism and witchcraft. We hope that individuals who come across our board, but who may not be familiar with our spiritual beliefs/practices will come away from the experience thinking positively of them. If a young person, for example, was browsing through our forum and their parents happened to walk into the room, what message do we want to be sending?
Also, I see several posts talking about demons, and they are not being deleted. One I responded to was someone worried about a demonic attack, and I personally think this should be allowed, and it apparently is.
1.) The posts you're referring to are older threads that aren't getting a lot of attention and are buried under more recent posts. People aren't posting on them, so they can be considered dead threads. If they're still up, then there was some merit to be found in the post, either concerning safety, a warning to other members that we mods felt needed to be kept up, or something else along those lines.

2.) We view posts concerning members being attacked in a different light because the posts themselves don't tend to center around the demonic force that's oppressing/targeting the individual(s). They are made in the hopes of getting help or advice, which is a major part of what we here at EUTM are all about. These are not people looking for resources about demons, or to talk in general about demons, but about how to protect and cleanse themselves. Different vibe altogether.
Another question? What about Satanism? :twisted:
We have never turned away anyone due to their spiritual path, although if a Satanist comes here, I'm personally not sure why, since their practices are more firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian religion than Paganism (although yes, some of them do practice witchcraft). We've had Satanists join before and they never stick around long. To be completely and utterly blunt, it's usually because they can't stand the more abundant "fluffy" members we have here, nor that we're pretty upfront with our preference for that sort of magical practice.

Here's the bottom line to keep in mind. If the subject that you want to discuss or research feels as though it's toeing a line, then it's best to not post it at all, or, at the very least, contact a moderator about it. If it's a topic that you really, REALLY want to talk about, then it's best to find somewhere else to post about it, because you won't find many members here who would be willing to, or very comfortable with darker subjects.
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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by SnowCat »

Azoth, your question is addressed quite clearly in rule 13. Starwitch lists prohibited topics, and specifies that the prohibition is not necessarily limited to the topics that are listed. In the common vernacular, a demon is equated with an evil spirit. The discussion of evil spirits is specifically prohibited.

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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by Xiao Rong »

Generally, the rule is that EUTM allows discussion of the ethics of certain practices or protecting yourself from them. But we will remove any information on how to actually do it (e.g. how to cast curses or summon demons). This was a choice made by the owner of the board, who wanted to keep her forum a space for positive witchcraft (and also pays to host this website and keep it ad-free). We are not extremely interested in splitting hairs on the definitions of what a demon is, and we reserve the right to remove whatever information we see fit, without warning. Repeated violations of the rule will result in a permanent ban.

Thanks for understanding,
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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by AzothPendragon »

Heartsong wrote:
Can you define what you mean by demon? goodnevil
Yep. I mean demon.

Azoth, neither I nor any of the other moderators are interested in splitting hairs with you... . And what I mean is, demons as they are both commonly and classically understood, the definition that most people are going to understand and interpret as demonic...
Also, I see several posts talking about demons, and they are not being deleted. One I responded to was someone worried about a demonic attack, and I personally think this should be allowed, and it apparently is.
Another question? What about Satanism? :twisted:
We have never turned away anyone due to their spiritual path, although if a Satanist comes here, I'm personally not sure why, since their practices are more firmly rooted in the Judeo-Christian religion than Paganism (although yes, some of them do practice witchcraft). We've had Satanists join before and they never stick around long. To be completely and utterly blunt, it's usually because they can't stand the more abundant "fluffy" members we have here, nor that we're pretty upfront with our preference for that sort of magical practice.
I appreciate the time you took for your thought out reply. I wish you would just come out and say what you mean by the word demon, because the modern definition as "evil spirit" comes from Christianity, as the etymology clearly shows. I am assuming you mean evil spirit.

For example here is the top definition on urbandictionary.com. I refer to this site because it gives more "commonly understood definitions" than sometimes the dictionaries do:
"
Demon
A demon is the result of a fallen Angel. At the start of time, 1/3 of the Heavens rebelled against Arch Angel Michael. This front was led by the Angel of Light - Lucifer and his armies were governed by Be'elzebuth.

The war wasnt a sucess for the third of angels rebelling and they were cast down to a region known as Hell. Once in Hell, the Fallen Angels became known as Demons.

Demons have the power to control human minds, an ironic power all considering their war was started due to the fact they were jealous God loved Humans more than his first creation - Angels.
Lucifer was an Angel, however turned into a Demon when sent to Hell
"

I personally do not believe fallen angels are evil spirits. They are angels which chose to come to earth and incarnate in physical forms, therefore "fallen."

The modern dictionaries define demon as evil spirit. I understand that "usage dictates definition."

I and my Selves also have no interest in "splitting hairs," and I don't think I was/am.

Urban Dictionary: splitting hairs
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...splitting+hairs
Urban Dictionary
Top Definition. splitting hairs. To argue about an inconsequential and trivial aspect of an issue.


Maybe you feel I was arguing? I don't think I am because arguing is trying to convince someone of your point of view. I have no point of view that I am trying to convince anyone of. I just wanted to know what Starwitch meant by the word.
You see, I grew up in a very extreme Christian home, and I was taught that ghosts were demons impersonating the dead, and the heathen gods were demons impersonating gods, and there were demons would entice us to do witchcraft, which I think most of here practice! Now, I don't believe gods are demons, nor ghosts, nor do I believe evil spirits entice us to do witchcraft!

Thanks for clarifying about people wanting help, because I have a lot of experience with what I thought were evil spirits, but they were just my imagination, and also sentient evil spirits, which have caused myself and other nightmares. I have been tortured for years with night terrors as a child by evil spirits. Sometimes, they were figments of my imagination, and sometimes they were literally evil spirits. I would pray to Jesus to make the night terrors stop, and would invoke his name in lucid nightmares, yet that didn't help. :anxious:
I finally became so angry after thousands night terrors like the stuff the most disgusting horror movies are made of, I fought back in the lucid nightmare, and slayed thousands of them. That's when the night terrors began to end. :fairy: smileylove

On Satanism, I do identify and label myself a Satanist. I also call myself a Christian, a Buddhist, a pagan, a warlock, a Khaos Mage, a Khaos Monk, a Pastafarian, Essene, and Discordian Pope.

I don't see Satan as an evil spirit, or god or lord of evil. I see Satan as Pan, the Greek god of Nature, demonized by the Catholic Church. :twisted: If you look at "The Seven Deadly Sins" they are all based on natural impulses that all living moving creatures share. I think The Church wanted to demonize Nature, so we feel guilty all the time, for such things as hunger, and having a sex drive. That makes us easier to control. Also guilt drives people back to church which means more money for the church. Also, it makes us afraid of Nature, and want to hide ourselves in these big cities, which also makes it easier to control the populace.

I have no interest in "working with" summoning, or communicating with evil spirits, or any god or lord of evil. I have a very specific definition
I personally define evil as harm. Harming other humans, harming animals, harming trees, harming the earth, harming disembodied spirits, I believe is "sin." I think it is immoral to kill anything. As Jesus said in the Essene texts, "He who kills, kills his brother."

I like woo-woo fluffiness, and appreciate it. I have been in some Discordian, Chaos Magic, and Satanist forums and social networking groups, and I left most of them, because for some reason they think it's cool to act obnoxious, post disgusting pictures, and are cynical and rude bordering on psychopathic. So, I understand why you don't want to attract that kind of negative energy. :evil:

I have no interest in this. I was on another pagan site for two days, and I left because I was constantly insulted in chat for asking questions or making very benign PG jokes. One of the users said she is a racist, and others joined in and said they are racist also. I tried to ignore the first one, and I couldn't because she is a moderator! She said she's been on the site since 2007, and she has a close relationship with the owner. I was horrified. I left without a word.

This is the only site I have found on the internet like it, and I hope to have lots of interesting discussions here because my wife and I feel very isolated in Honolulu in our belief systems. (She identifies as a witch.) :flyingwitch: I had to literally search for hours to find a site that is a positive-minded pagan/witchcraft forum. smileylove

I had no intention to offend or sound argumentative. If I did, I apologize. We can't hear tone of voice on the internet. I think if we were talking in person, you would've realized by my body language and tone of voice I wasn't trying to argue. smiley_dance

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply.
:lol: smileylove

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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by AzothPendragon »

Just wanted to add a quote from one of the moderators, who's last magickal name is the name of a "demon" by the way.



Re: I dream about demons a lot

Postby Seraphin Murmur » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:50 am
Stating that Daemons are wrong and evil is a very Christian and polarized generalization for me. Judeo-Christian faiths use the term in this manner because the translators of the Bible mistranslated and corrupted a lot of Hebrew and Greek words and phrases to the point where it doesn't even resemble YHVH's Word anymore.

The Daemons that I work with are not wrong and evil. Unfortunately, in this predominantly Christian planet, the qualities of Daemons being evil and malicious are taken as facts, not subject to question or debate. Anyone disagrees with this or perhaps even simply doubts their reality of being "evil" is denounced as a sorcerer, if not Satanic.

But experiences and objective facts, not religious dogmatism, must prevail if we're sincerely interested in discovering the truth. For most Christians or perhaps some people who have long accepted without question what the Church said, this is not easy to consider. But they can always take a look whether there is a shred of truth to the beliefs and experiences of others who work with real Daemons before rejecting them.

I'm not saying you do this or have these feelings personally, this comment isn't aimed at anyone. Just saying that I often notice these statements and think about these things.

Now about the dream, I don't really do dream interpretation (unless I know the individual), so no help there, I'm afraid. I think the meanings of dreams are already within the person who dreams them, so my advice is always to "look inside"; what does the symbolism mean to that person?

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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by Lord_of_Nightmares »

While personally, I do not mind discussing of evil spirits or the like, I respect the board's wishes and rules. I mean some topics are cross cultural so the issues of the blurring becomes a topic, such as with Aradia's Lucifer and Lilith herself. (Lucifer have originally nothing to do with Satan, but is a minor Roman god, and Lilith being a wind/storm spirits from Mesopotamia.)

I have no problem with "fluff" people, I only have a problem if someone attacks me. So far, the positive atmosphere on this site is the reason I continue posting because it is very accepting and non-judgmental. A lot of sites nowadays, even Wiccan sites, are filled with very judgmental and at times, rude people.

Anyway, this is OT. I just wanted to say; THANK YOU to all the staffers and the owner. :D
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Re: Why no talk of demons?

Post by AzothPendragon »

Lady_Lilith wrote:While personally, I do not mind discussing of evil spirits or the like, I respect the board's wishes and rules. I mean some topics are cross cultural so the issues of the blurring becomes a topic, such as with Aradia's Lucifer and Lilith herself. (Lucifer have originally nothing to do with Satan, but is a minor Roman god, and Lilith being a wind/storm spirits from Mesopotamia.)

I have no problem with "fluff" people, I only have a problem if someone attacks me. So far, the positive atmosphere on this site is the reason I continue posting because it is very accepting and non-judgmental. A lot of sites nowadays, even Wiccan sites, are filled with very judgmental and at times, rude people.

Anyway, this is OT. I just wanted to say; THANK YOU to all the staffers and the owner. :D
I agree with you.

I have had dreams of Lilith, and she is always beautiful, wise, and amazing. I think she was "demonized" by the Catholic Church. Thanks for your reply.

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