*~* Witchcraft and Wicca Forum *~* EUTM


Which Websites Are You Studying?

American Folk Magick, Hoodoo, Appalachian Granny Magic, Ozark Mountain Magic, Pow-wow Magic, and other types of folk magick are discussed here.

Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:22 pm

Which websites are you studying from Kassandra?

I always enjoy listening to the Lucky Mojo Rootwork Radio Hour. I really enjoy Cath Yrowode's interpretations of the tarot, and because its a call in show it allows you to follow along with the divination format which I have found I've learned lots from, even though I wouldn't say I was beginner to the tarot. Really interesting yet simple interpretations.

I like Denise Alvarados books on poppets, and hoodoo generally, although I'm not sure how well they are regarded there in the USA?

... and am currently trying to put together a collection for 'throwing the bones'. Tough times trying find that snakebone though lol...
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:31 am

.

I've cross-referenced and researched many, many sites, including the ones written by the people you mentioned in your post. Honestly, I tend to like books better than websites, though. And most importantly, I tend to prefer to follow my own instincts. I tend to have my own way of doing things, despite anything I've read or heard. I'm not one to adhere to a single individual or group for guidance, though I will study their work and give credit accordingly. But, yeah, Denise Alvarado and Cat Yronwode have definitely made their marks in H.

In your past posts before you left for a while, I remember you've mentioned practicing some H. Are there particular spells and techniques that you find especially effective? And I'm just really curious...do you know the route H took to travel all the way over to Australia? I find that fascinating. I've read about other people there who practice H.

Keep us posted on your putting together the divination bones set. :wink: Perhaps eventually, you could practice on folks in the Free Readings by Members forum. That would be cool.



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:43 pm

I really have no idea about how it may have travelled here but I personally came across it in tales of marie laveau and in popular culture and in books. You are going to crack up at this but I first became fascinated with ATRs in the 80s after watching the James Bond film 'Octopussy'... Where JB gets cosy with a 'Vodou High Priestess' haha... Didn't start looking into it until a lot later though. I also have my own ways of 'getting sh!t done'...but I think some of the techniques are really logical when it comes to sympathetic magic especially.

At times I find it not dissimilar to some Romany gypsy magick and wonder if there are any shared roots there...

I experimented with hoodoo myself and I guess the main compelling reason I continued an interest in using it/incorporating it in a Chaos Magick sense, is simply because it was so damned effective. Whatever works, right? I've used it successfully for some pretty intense stuff and been very happy with the results. Koettings book The Spider and the green butterfly, voudon crossroads of power is a worthwhile read. Conjureman Ali among other people has some really interesting posts on various forums when it comes to practice.

Magically hoodoo is I think a less 'watered down' magical system than something like, say, Wicca (I guess it's more of a religion anyhow), or this softer new agey witchcraft getting around.

How are you going with the lwa? :)
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:52 pm

.


Well, as I mentioned under the subtitle "Simplicity" in the "Welcome" post in this forum, one of the main reasons I was even remotely interested in African American Folk Magic (AAFM) is because it doesn't involve serving gods and goddesses. While ancestors are always honored (which I already do), lwa and other African divinities are not a part of AAFM practices; that's vodou, Voodoo, or traditional African religions. At most, AAFM practitioners may incorporate Psalms in their spells (an influence of Jewish pharmacy owners in the South on the African-American developers of AAFM; see psalmic-magic-t25185.html ). Or, they might include prayers to well-known Christian saints. But, service to African divinities like the lwa (Rada, Petro, Nago, Kongo, Ghede, etc.) is not part of AAFM practice.


A lot of people get this mixed up, so to clarify this confusion for current and potential clients, the highly-esteemed rootworker Dr. E (he just died unexpectedly last week :cry: ), explained it this way on his website:

Often people mistake H, specifically, with Vodou. The difference between them is simple. Vodou is a religion. H is nothing more than Southern Folk Magic. H uses the magical techniques of the Congo people of Africa without any of the religion. There is no presence of the nkisi, orishas, or lwa of Africa. In fact, most people who practice H are Protestant Christians...praying to Jesus and God the Father, and ...there are some some Catholic practitioners who will petition Catholic saints. ...So H is not Voodoo.
Source: santeriachurch.org/what-is-the-difference-between-voodoo-hoodoo-and-santeria/

Or more simply:
These days, the term H specifically means the largely African American folk magic traditions of the southern states, without a religious framework; and the term Voodoo denotes a religious framework involving the Lwa and roots in Haiti.
Source: liminalnation.org/discuss/discussion/640/hoodoo-versus-voodoo/p1




.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:35 pm

Yeah, I realise the difference ... But some hoodoo practitioners still make reference to ellegua etc, and the saints were only introduced by African peoples as a socially acceptable correspondence to their lwa anyhow.

From wiki -

As a way to keep their European masters from interfering, and to appease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own religions, the African slaves in Haiti syncretised the Loa with the Roman Catholic saints - so Vodoun altars will frequently have images of Catholic figures displayed. For example, Papa Legba is alternately St. Peter or St. Lazarus, Ayizan is Saint Clare, and so on. Syncretism also works the other way in Haitian Vodou and many Catholic saints have become Loa in their own right, most notably Philomena, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Jude, and John the Baptist.

Was just curious to know if you were utilising any of these elements. :)
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:59 pm

.
-Dark-Moon- wrote:From wiki -

As a way to keep their European masters from interfering, and to appease the authorities who prevented them from practising their own religions, the African slaves in Haiti syncretised the Loa with the Roman Catholic saints - so Vodoun altars will frequently have images of Catholic figures displayed. For example, Papa Legba is alternately St. Peter or St. Lazarus, Ayizan is Saint Clare, and so on. Syncretism also works the other way in Haitian Vodou and many Catholic saints have become Loa in their own right, most notably Philomena, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Jude, and John the Baptist.


Naw, I like to keep it simple. No lwa in my world. :wink:

If you read back over it, what you've quoted there references the "African slaves in Haiti," "Vodoun altar," and "Haitian Vodou." It is not referencing African-American hoodoo, which is what I'm covering in this forum. They're not the same thing.

But it's understandable --like I said, they get mixed up like this a lot. Though they both have roots in Africa, hoodoo is an American spiritual path, not Haitian, and different in many aspects from vodou/Voodoo. Hoodoo does not incorporate a pantheon of gods, nor spiritistic practices as vodou/Voodoo both do. For instance, vodou incorporates "spirit possession" and all that, in order for people to "receive messages from the lwa," etc. Not my bag, and not a part of hoodoo, either.

Secondly, another distinct difference between the two is as far as Christian saints are concerned, yes, with the Haitians, Christian saints are but proxies for their original African gods, "covers," if you will. But with American hoodoo folks, however, well, I'll just say this...I know some who would be pretty insulted if someone were to say they are praying to African gods.

When American hoodoo practitioners (be they black, white, Asian, Hispanic, whatever --hoodoo has never been restricted to just black people) include a prayer to St. Michael for protection in a hoodoo spell, in their minds they believe they are praying to the Christian St. Michael, not some African god. Trust me, they want nothing to do with any African gods, soever...after all, hoodoo was born in the "Bible Belt" of the United States, meaning, in that area the culture as a whole tends to look down on any non-Christian gods as being "heathen" or "pagan." Even hoodoo practitioners feel this way. So, while they may be utilizing African-American folk magic practices, they do not pray to African gods. They purposely took that part out of the mix.

If you see someone praying to Papa Legba and the gang, know that they are practicing either vodou or Voodoo, or an African traditional religion, not hoodoo.



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:31 pm

Well I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone :)

I take your point, but to make my point clearer, I think this information from evocation magic. Com about St Cyprian is a great example of what I am alluding to...

It is very interesting to see Saint Cyprian's reputation and popularity grow. The reality is that this saint has never been part of what some would deem "traditional" hoodoo, conjure, and rootwork practices. His roots are found mostly in the Iberian Peninsula where he was adopted as a figure almost the equivalent of King Solomon. The practices then were brought over to the New World where he found a home in the Carribean, Latin America, and South America.

The reality is that this saint did not appear in hoodoo until roughly the late 60's and early 70's and in a very minor fashion. His appearance can be traced to specific regions like Los Angeles, Florida, and New York. All areas with a heavy population of Afro-Carribean, Afro-Cuban, and Latin American influence. It is through these practices that he becomes adopted into hoodoo specifically through botanicas and spiritual supply shops.

His true popularity didn't take off in the US until the past 10 years.
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:40 pm

.


As far as St. Cyprian or any other saint, I guess the rule is that regardless "how" or "when" they got "here," if they're considered a Christian saint, and not a cover for some non-Christian god, then they pass "The African American Hoodoo Litmus Test," hahaha, so, they're in! I don't know. It's no skin off my nose who's "in" and who's not, either way. I'm not, to put it nicely, really excited about Christianty...so quite frankly, I could do without all this "saints and gods" business. If you read back over my "Welcome" introduction, I stated that if I have an interest in hoodoo, it would be for the magic, the art, the contact with nature, a love of anthropology, etc....worshipping Christian saints, not a priority, lol.

But, I respect the rules because I'm "in their house," so to speak, and I advise you (and others) to do the same. Just as an fyi, I've seen hoodoo folk get pretty worked up about their practices getting mixed up with vodou or Voodoo like you're unintentionally doing here.

The hoodoo lady you mentioned, Cat Yronwode, she will rip a person a new one if they say she's worshipping African gods in her hoodoo practice...Christian saints, OK. Perhaps even Jewish personages, OK. And vice versa...never say to a vodou/Voodoo person they're practicing hoodoo, unless you're looking for an argument. Whew. Yeah, before I learned anything else in that path, I learned to make this clear distinction. It was drilled into my head by others, lol I respect each of their "houses."

It's not that there's anything wrong with African gods. It's just Haitian culture and American Southern culture are not the same thing. Where both hoodoos and vodous, and people practicing traditional African religions in general get offended is when people just automatically lump all their spiritual paths together and don't bother to respect the differences, as though they all have the same teachings, like, "it's all just black people anyway."

I guess I could understand that. That's like saying, "Meh, Celtic, Nordic, what's the difference?...it's all white people so it's all the same thing, anyway, right?" or when people say a thing is just "Native American," which we've all done here, without making a distinction as to which tribe the something actually belongs to, because "it's all just Indians, anyway, what's the difference?"



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:44 pm

That doesn't surprise me, have you seen her online spat with Denise Alvarado? conjureart.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/open-letter-to-cat-yronwode-and-lucky.html?m=1

Feel free to delete my post if you don't want this sort of thing here, but, I think the arguments within kind of indicate that these delineations are often questionable.

Seems they are offending each other, anyhow. :flyingwitch:
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:55 pm

.

No, I didn't have the pleasure of seeing that before. But, I could sense the vibe between them wasn't good. Well, the argument there is because the New Orleans "V H" that Denise puts forward...let's just say it is a horse of an entirely different color than the hoodoo practiced in the entire rest of the South.

I would imagine Denise's book, "V H,"** just from the title of it alone, and given what I just wrote above, would be a bone of contention between them, right there, hahaha. And if you're studying her work, then it's understandable why you're getting H and vodou all mashed together. It's my understanding she indeed does just that in order to sell books. That's a criticism I have heard others make, I don't know the truth of it, myself.

Nevertheless, I would still hold Denise as a viable person to study, because I think it's good for people studying a subject to look at as many different points of view as possible, if only for comparison and contrast value. I take no sides with either one of them, either way.

**Below is Denise Alvarado's "V H" booklet. She tends to put African American hoodoo, and Haitian vodou practices, and "New Orleans V" all into one drawer. All I can say is most H people I've talked to frown on this:

api.ning.com/files/r760mwxOYBlegVEQPqL6lY275KjhK9CyzrHsnngb477Mj0OHv1w79H58--f8ep4DNu2vDHvcvWsARnYv4lI5Xuc2Q9kWR2P*/AlvaradoDeniseTheVoodooHoodooSpellbook.pdf


(btw, Starwitch did ask for us not to link back to related websites, so I did delete the "http://" part of your hyperlink; I left the rest of the address up so people could just cut and paste it into the browser, as per Starwitch's request; I've been trying to do that with all my own posts, as well).



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:41 pm

.


I have to move on from this topic, due to time constraints. But this is a very good conversation, and I hope we could continue it, because I do have other thoughts about this. I am glad you're back, as you've always been the instigator of great conversations on this message board. I really respect your thoughts on things. Plus, you always make me "dig," lol.

Your comments on this topic reminded me that I noticed a while back that there needed to be research done on the regional differences of H practice in the United States. When I listen to these folks, I hear them say, "well, with traditional Tennessee H, " or "the way it's done in traditional Kentucky H, etc. They have this stuff all in their heads, and there hasn't been any research done, to my knowledge, that distinguishes regional differences, codifies it in some way, etc. Now, that would interesting...something for a real anthropologist to do (I'm just a happy "armchair" one, lol).

By the way, as an aside, I did want to invite you to visit the two "Things Japanese" threads I started in the Ask Kassandra forum. One is for "Traditional" stuff, one for "Modern." Since you lived in Japan before, you might be interested in adding somethin' in there if you'd like. :wink:

You know, it's funny I just realized something...genetically, I have more in common with Denise Alvarado, as I am of French Creole origin on my father's side, a culture based in the Louisiana/Alabama area of the South. But I didn't grow up there. I was raised in California...and less than one hour away from where Cat Yronwode grew up! So, in some ways I have things in common with her, too.

I'm kind of smack dab in the middle of all this.

Take care.



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby -Dark-Moon- » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:00 pm

Yeah it's definitely a can of worms. I feel I can't speak for any of it really but I'm a curious cat at heart... Always poking around in everything lol. It's an interesting thing I've always questioned - does one culturally identify with genetic places or the land one was raised ? I mean I'm genetically irish more than anything, but I wouldn't know a leprechaun if I tripped over one :D... Although I think perhaps I might have the Irish sense of humour. I have deep connections with the land in my home country though as you know. It's funny I've never really been drawn to much Celtic ... Except for perhaps the Morrigan as an interesting figure.

Denise makes an excellent point regarding the oral tradition as a means of transferring knowledge, ... And certainly in Cherokee there is evidence of this history being completely orally translated from ancient times. So yes I have done only superficial anthropological digging regarding hoodoo... But i guess the thing is, many of these traditions may have never been written down ever. So its hard to get to the bottom of these things. As they say always question the 'guru' though. I can print a piece of paper saying I'm Grand Poobah of whatever, and have all the other Grand Poobahs agree, but in the end, for the true seeker it's up to them to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Also, there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat anyhow ... And apparently I hear there's more than one way to get to Rome. But as the Irish say - if I were goin to Rome, I wouldn't be startin from here ! :D

Regarding Denise's propensity for lumping it all together, you've hit on precisely what I'm curious about, and how things differ from New Orleans to say California. At any rate it's super interesting and I really value your taking the time to give me any insights you have about what you have learned.

So you are studying H in a formal sense, I take it? Ie classes and stuff?
I am that which is attained at the end of desire
User avatar
-Dark-Moon-
 
Posts: 756
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:29 pm
Location: A distant star

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby Kassandra » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:07 am

.

No, not taking classes. Just listening to people talk, and doing my thing (making oils, helping other people, etc.). Plus, my father talks about his grandmother who was a rootworker, sometimes.

In the Southern part of the United States, if I remember what I learned in my U.S. history classes somewhat correctly, the three largest colonies were Spanish, French and English, while there were many smaller settlements like those of the Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, etc. I think that what's on the Lucky Mojo website might be due to Miss Cat studying African American Folk Magic practitioners influenced somewhat by German and Jewish cultural/religious influences. And Denise, due to her (and my) heritage, is definitely more influenced by the French-influenced parts of the South. Maybe that's at the core of why they clashed so much. Really, that seems to make perfect sense! I hadn't even thought about that before. Interesting.

Gah, this is making my head spin. lol Anyway, back to your OP...yes, the Lucky Mojo website and online radio show are very informative. And, really, all the websites regarding African American Folk Magic are valuable, as they give one the opportunity to compare and contrast differences like that which I stated above.

That's really all I have left to say on this subject for now.

Thanks.



.
:fairy: bling ~ Have a magical day, now ~

Ask Kassandra
Find Balance
Awaken
User avatar
Kassandra
EUTM Support
EUTM Support
 
Posts: 3611
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Terra, Sol III, Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Which Websites Are You Studying?

Postby loona wynd » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:18 pm

Do you think you could make a link list and a book list for references and resources?
User avatar
loona wynd
Banned Member
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:27 pm
Location: Bath Maine


Return to Folk Magick

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests