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The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:13 am
by HopefulChild
I'd really love to know how people feel about this concept, and if I can provide information on how to change the standard application of ritual, would you be willing to try it.

The thing that keeps nagging me is that Fire is not an element. Fire is technology and a chemical process.

Earth, Air, and Water...they are elements. Fire is not.

"But fire comes out of the earth in volcanoes, and when lightning strikes things".

Yes it does. Which is exactly my point. What causes fire to come from inside the earth is Friction. The excitation of electrons from surface to surface being converted into thermal energy. The EXACT same process of charged particles in clouds is what causes the buildup of negative electrons to overbalance and seek a grounding and pull positive particles into a line (strange force) and then discharge in a thermal exchange that makes a brilliant flash of light in the form of perfect electron fire.

Now consider this. The entire foundation of Natural Magic is translating one energy into another for work. Fire can do this, but fire does this at a rather massive cost imbalance.

Electricity does work at a significantly improved return rate on cost.

And the next thing to consider is the Ancient Batteries...(Baghdad battery) Why did the Egyptians, Etruscans, and other ancient people have clay batteries. What would they use batteries for? We know it isn't electroplating gold.

Well my theory is that they were doing magic. And the batteries were driving a low voltage Climbing Arc, or Jacob's Ladder.
You've seen them in old movies and cartoons, two wires in a V shape and a spark of electricity traveling between the two wires upward.

Now here is the really interesting part to me. You need Earth, Air, and Water, to create an acidic electrolyte that can create electricity.
In a battery you have an acid, an alkali, and oxidation, to facilitate the transfer of electrons. A copper anode, iron diode, provide the earth, lemon juice, grape juice, or vinegar provide the acid, air oxidizes the mixture and creates electricity.

Now take two very thin copper rods and point them in a V out of the top of that clay battery and you get all your ritual elements in one place AND you get very powerful energy climbing up the rods and dispersing into the atmosphere to carrying your intentions, and your magic, out into the world.

Is it possible this is why magic is so much more difficult now? because we are using an "element" that is so inefficient and not the right element in the first place.

Is it possible so many ancient rituals were done in skyclad circles with swords as a way of drawing in lightning and grounding it to drive group magic?
A group of people, holding hands, being wet and barefoot would actually stand a real chance of being hit by lightning and not harmed at all.

What do you think?

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:48 pm
by Becks
Very thought provoking.

I guess I think of the fourth element in terms of balance. Three is also a sacred number....but In the case of the four elements, I think about people trying to classify and derive meaning of the fundamentals of life....looking at a living being there is earth. The earth being the elements and atoms that make up the physical body. We take in aspects of the earth as nourishment to feed us. The water being the fluids of life found in each of us-blood etc. The water that keeps us hydrated. The air we breathe and gasses we exhale for life. The fire, well our bodies are nothing with without the chemical and electrical impulses that give us that spark of life. Some practitioners call our spirit-fire.

I like the way you think and I appreciate the questions you pose. I like your approach to your practice. It makes me think.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:33 pm
by SnowCat
The flame folk of ancient Antarctica would disagree with your position on Fire, Hopeful Child. They were a race of Elemental beings who inhabited Antarctica when it was green and warm. I lived there then, in a long ago lifetime. They knew that an abrupt climate change would come, and gave us warning to evacuate, so that we would survive.

Snow

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:30 pm
by HopefulChild
Thank you, that is very humbling.
I'm pretty sure I'm blushing.

I will end up trying this. I've already devised a container that requires a practitioner to hold two handles to complete the circuit.
I'll need to throw some math at my pop to find out how much voltage would be required to create a climbing arc, and how close that is to the thresh hold of electrocuting ones self. LOL

I know I probably come across as some half crazed know it all running amok in these forums.
My apologies. I am truly enjoying the idea that there is a place I can discuss all of this and hear active opinions versus the last couple of years reading.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:55 pm
by Myrth
I like the idea of energy as the fourth element. Electricity works. So does energy work. I use Reiki extensively in my practice. So yes, I believe you are right.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:09 pm
by Lady_Lilith
Electricity is under the division of wood/wind in wu xing, while fire is by itself. This is because fire needs the wood/wind/electricity element in order to exist.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:26 pm
by HopefulChild
I may get to experiment with my idea this year.
It's something I've decided to make a minor priority.

I've decided to go ahead and build my "technomancy" altar and try to accomplish simple tasks.

Also constructing a set of tests that I can use that really stretch the probability layer so I can have measurable results even if they are just anecdotal.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:50 pm
by Myrth
I look forward to reading about your results. Don't do anything too *shocking* OK? :wink2:

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:37 am
by HopefulChild
Well the first step is to build a crank powered Jacobs ladder.
The plan is to use a treadle wheel to turn a dynamo and feed that to a 110v ac transformer stepped up to 40,000v which will drive the jacobs ladder.

If you aren't familiar a treadle wheel is most easily exemplified by one of those old sewing machine tables that had a pedal and big iron wheel. When you push the pedal it turns the wheel which drives the belt that makes the sewing machine spin and do work.

A little math proved that with a 32inch treadle I can belt drive a 1/4 inch dynamo shaft upwards of 3000 rpm which is what I would need to maintain 110v ac. So while running the pedal and concentrating I can use the energy that I am multiplying as a driver for a simple spell that gets released directly into the air as a plasma discharge.

In theory making the treadle wheel assembly from dried hard woods, I can power it directly with my naked foot and thus mix my energy with the altar without fear of stopping my heart.

I just have to be really careful not to wave my arms too dramatically around the climbing arc discharge.

It doesn't sound crazy to me...a little risky but I've taken that into account.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:39 am
by HopefulChild
I got my transformer...

I got my Stator...

I worked out my RPM calculations for my treadle/double treadle.

I have my belt drive material, the majority of the supplies for construction.


I think in stage 1 I'll just build the Jacob's Ladder and use electricity from the wall. Once the Jacob's Ladder is functioning and safe, I'll build the dynamo and start doing measurements on the voltage output.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:37 am
by firebirdflys
How bout a pic? This sound intriguing.
FF

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:14 pm
by HopefulChild
All I could take a picture of is wired metal boxes and a circle of magnets.

Haven't built anything yet...just collecting up the parts. I'll update on it, promise.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:20 am
by mangosandy82
Very interesting thoughts. I do believe that fire is an element. What about when wild fires start in forests? It'd be kind of hard not to think that fire is not an element. I guess it all comes down to personal belief.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:11 pm
by HopefulChild
How do the majority of wildfires start?

Lightning.

What used to be called spontaneous combustion, has in recent years been relabeled as exothermic electron transfer.

I don't think it is a matter of personal belief if I'm going to be honest. It's matter of accuracy in application and our predecessors while doing the best they could, had less information for the most part.
Ritual that worked, lead to dogmatic teaching that stuck and that turned into traditions that are mostly set in stone.

I'm not purporting to know the "real truth" either. I'm just exploring.

Re: The Four Elements and Why one Isn't

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:08 pm
by TwilightDancer
HopefulChild wrote:
Haven't built anything yet...just collecting up the parts. I'll update on it, promise.


Following. I do hope to see the end results of this experiment.

Very thought provoking, indeed.