Sorry to respond so late to Rockodile and JuniperBerry, but I want to say those are good posts. Ditto to JuniperBerry and here's my two shekels on the matter.
Rockodile wrote:Nevertheless. I'm not saying that Wicca and paganism shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve to be. I'm just saying it isn't, and not only by conservative extremists, but by a massive sector of the general population- dare I say, the vast majority- which includes your nutjobs and your belligerents, but also your professors and your mathematicians and your average Joe walking down the street. Paganism by and large is simply not viewed with any particular gravity by most people, but rather as a foolish teenage phase or a feel-good "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" quirk for hippies with thirty-five cats.
Threads like this frustrate me because they speak to me of a lack of awareness within the pagan community about the way non-mainstream beliefs are perceived by society as a whole and a certain apathy when it comes to correcting that perception- or even understanding it. It's so easy to pull up a page like this and ridicule it- crazy Christian! Hahaha! Look how wrong he is! Look how sad and empty his little world must be! Ohoho!
See the waste inherent in this whole picture?
Paganism isn't taken seriously because it has never, or almost never, been subject to the same kind of doctrinal scrutiny under which Christianity (among others) has labored for centuries. Lacking an organized core, I think, is both a blessing and a curse; it allows individual practitioners to develop a path which is uniquely suited to their own needs, but it simultaneously turns the faith, in the eyes of pretty much everyone else, into a wishy-washy muddle of "eh, just do whatever you want, if you think it's right then it totally must be right" which understandably devalues its intellectual merit in the common esteem. As someone who identifies with many aspects of paganism, I find it sad that so much energy within the community is devoted to pointing to right-wing tirades while patting one another on the back rather than seeking out a higher standard of discourse on spiritual issues.
If you want paganism to be taken seriously- and you should, because outside criticism on a scholarly level is often crucial to internal development- then maybe it's time to stop seeking out the perverse pleasure of feeling insulted and start asking some of the harder questions.
In short: grow up, guys.
I cannot argue with the fact that Christianity gets its share of scrutiny. The same is becoming increasingly true of Islam. One point you missed, is that oftentimes this scrutiny is self-inflicted. When I was growing up as a Christian, we were encouraged as the Bible verse teaches, to "study to show thyself approved." We had to scrutinize ourselves as well as anyone who was not following our particular way. I have listened to and read testimonies of Muslims and ex-Muslims alike who are told to study their scriptures constantly. From my perception, it appears that most of the scrutiny is from fellow Christians. Catholics claim sole truth, and will scrutinize anything non-Catholic. Various Protestant branches will scrutinize the Catholic teachings and history; they will also bicker back and forth at one another (example : Calvinists verses Universalists). I see people who follow differing forms of Islam doing the same at one another, using their chosen holy book as their source of authority to do so.
This had been mentioned in the eloquent essay, "How to Share the Gospel with a Pagan." Many pagans are former Christians. This is true at least here in the United States. They scrutinized scripture, studied their history, weighed out many factors, before making this decision. The sloppy, hippie types (and/or the ones who come across that way) that you criticize exist in every religion. I've seen obnoxious Christians who drink like a fish and waste their money on illegal drugs, believing just enough about the Bible to think that Jesus is their personal windshield wiper. When I was at BeliefNet, I used to see various bickerings back and forth on Hindu and Buddhist forums. On the Buddhist forum, I read one thread that ranted against both the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Buddhist monk who authored the book
Anger), calling them both "hedonistic and sloppy." During my hiatus from EUTM, I was hanging out at YouTube and saw time after time, Christians ranting at atheists at their ignorance of the Bible and how dare they criticize it. The answer was almost always the same, many of the atheists there used to be Christians.
Many Christians appear unable to accept this painful fact, but often atheists (especially the outspoken ex-Christians on the internet) are extremely knowledgeable about the Bible; usually they know A LOT more about scriptures than self-proclaimed Christians who make that accusation. Years ago, I was accused of lying by a few Christians in one debate, when I had said Yahweh had a history of ordering mass murder and genocide. They could not answer when I pointed out to them the disturbing commandments in Numbers 31. Typical answers I was able to find have been very weak, along the lines of "I don't want to get politically correct here. Genocide is a 20th century word. That was not genocide because Arab pagans were still in other city-states." Weird stuff like that. They never could answer how a good, loving God would order the killing of male children, even if they were only two weeks old, and to kill all the women who were not virgins; all female virgins were to be spared and distributed among themselves as booty. (At Biblos.com, one commentator tries to argue that it was ordered because of their corruption and the women were the worst offenders. ARGH! Don't even get me started on that stupid line of reasoning.) That is in the Bible, written words which they believe was inspired by God himself.
Speaking of the atheist communities on the internet, whether you speak of YouTube or BeliefNet or anywhere else, I will say it hurts when I see them take their jabs at paganism. Many of them as ex-Christians left the church because of their discovery that Christianity has pagan roots, as though to be compared with paganism somehow makes it invalid. Muslims have a similiar issue, with their roots in old Arab lunar paganism. Deists are better about it; they too look at "nature's god" like pagans do but they believe in one creator, one god, with reason (verses "pagan superstitions") as our survival tool. Muslims and Christians shout "pagan" at one another as though it were an insult. Yeah, I get hurt when I see that but I don't let it get me down. Sheesh, I have to stay in the catacombs most of the time. It's bad enough when I see Wiccans and Hellenists compared to devilry. I'm walking the gauntlet here all the time because I dance very close to some of the Luciferian ways these days due to my Enki enthusiasm (one of four original Elohim predating Genesis, already mentioned in this thread). I've had to own it; as a product of my own upbringing, I had been taught to fear the name. So I have to deal with another variation of "rebellious teenage fluff bunnies" who claim sole connections to Enki (one even "knows" his favorite rock group, which is Pearl Jam. lol) If it is not them, it is the factions that think Enki is/was an extraterrestrial. Christians think he is the Devil. I felt very alone until I found the site "Gateways to Babylon." It is closest to my own thoughts and feelings on the matter.
That is MY soul searching quest for truth. I study, read, meditate. The site "Solitary Pagan" encourages you to be observant of nature around you and to always read and research. I have seen very knowledgable pagans, and many who are like what you describe. Every group has them. Then there are the in-betweens, such as the newbies who are at the beginning of their quest for truth. To say "It is up to you" or "It is personal" is NOT intended as a greenlight to be sloppy. It means it will vary, according to where you live on the planet, what your situation is, what your intentions are, and so forth. Pagan deities even take on forms that each one can understand and deal with, which is why often they are ethnic. Athena looks Greek, Kwan Yin looks Chinese, Odin looks Nordic, etc. Yet they will vary in appearance and function on another part of the world. I mentioned "Gateways to Babylon" and it is an excellent example. In the ancient drawings, Enki looks Sumerian. At this web site, Enki has grown and evolved - He looks very Caucasion and is dressed in Native American clothes. On some sites, he has an extremely Nordic look and dressed like some of the classical paintings of angels. Personally I have a different "look" for him but those work for me at times.
(Don't ask why, I don't know... But when I "see" him, he reminds me much of Ben Chaplin with a larger schnozzle, very expressive eyes with eyeliner around them, and a goat tee. No moustache or anthing, just the goat tee.)
You are right, though. It is easy to misunderstand paganism, especially solitary paganism. It is NOT a "be a free love hippie" choice. There is thought and discipline there. Christians and increasingly Muslims will get scrutnized because they are pressured by their own books to make converts out of everyone else whether they want it or not. With pagans and many other religions, this is not the case. To go to one of them and say, "Choose a way for me" is ridiculous and might even come across as mentally lazy. It is like saying, "Choose a career for me" or "Choose my spouse for me." Of course, Christians and Muslims have no trouble doing this.
Well, this post is extremely long. Sorry for the War and Peace lecture. On to your regularly scheduled "That dumb website" rant. L ULZ.