Everything Under the Moon

I have always been fascinated by fire. And I see these youtube videos about pyrokinesis, aerokinesis and telekinesis...

Does pyrokinesis actually exist? Can people actually master it?

I am very, very skeptical that this sort of power exists. I have met several people who claim this power, and yet every single time someone has claimed to me that they can control fire, they are either unable or unwilling to prove it, or "prove" it by claiming they're responsible for something that would occur anyway. What I mean by that is, saying they're responsible for making a candle flicker because there's no draft in the room, but because of the way a candle is made and because of how air currents work around fire, candles will flicker with no draft anyway. Until I see actual proof of someone's ability, I'm going to remain a skeptic on this one.

Hehe, that's what I always thought too. When people claimed that they are able to control fire, they are unable to prove it. Candle flames are too unpredictable. I once knew a guy who claimed he could control air, but then, he was unable to prove it infront of people, so it just leave me wonder.

But I guess the world is so large, we have to keep an open eyes for things like this.

I do think it's possible to some extent. I myself can not do this but we as humans are capable of some powerful magic and even the best of us has only scratched the surface of what magic can do. I think it was Franz Bardon who claims that candles can be lit with the mind in his book Initiations into Hermetics. I think in order to perform such a feat the magician would have to work extensively with the element of fire. I would be skeptical of most folks that claim they can also but I still think it is possible.

I think I am going to go with Siona here -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Xiao Rong wrote:I think I am going to go with Siona here -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Not disagreeing but this is exacly how muggles feel about all magic period! and yet...

Eliphas Blackthorn wrote:

Xiao Rong wrote:I think I am going to go with Siona here -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Not disagreeing but this is exacly how muggles feel about all magic period! and yet...

Well, speaking personally, I believe in the magic and rituals I do because I have firsthand experience of their effectiveness, and because they've been beneficial to me in a spiritual sense if nothing else. However, I know that my personal experiences can't really be 'proven' to anyone else, they're my beliefs and I really wouldn't expect anyone else to take them as more than that. However, when someone comes up to me and says they can control fire, they're claiming to have a power that could be clearly demonstrated in real time in the physical world, so it should be pretty easy to prove or disprove... but again, for all the claims I've seen, no one is interested in taking that step.

Eliphas Blackthorn wrote:Not disagreeing but this is exacly how muggles feel about all magic period! and yet...

Yeah, that's definitely true; I've always been more on the skeptic side of things (although I have come around to believing some stuff). Again, like Siona said, I know that magic and rituals are definitely effective from a psychological or emotional point of view. But I do think that it would take a lot more for me to believe that magic can so directly bend or break the laws of physics, which is why I tend to be more skeptical of claims like, "I can move __ with my mind" or "I can start fires with my mind" -- these things can be easily proven. In my experience, magic is a subtle influence, not a superpower. So I'm far more inclined to believe that, psychological effects aside, that it can influence probability to produce synchronous events (for example, I have definitely experienced dozens of times when I've pulled just the right Tarot card). But even then, I still always entertain the notion that it COULD be all just chance.

Siona wrote:

Eliphas Blackthorn wrote:

Xiao Rong wrote:I think I am going to go with Siona here -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Not disagreeing but this is exacly how muggles feel about all magic period! and yet...

Well, speaking personally, I believe in the magic and rituals I do because I have firsthand experience of their effectiveness, and because they've been beneficial to me in a spiritual sense if nothing else. However, I know that my personal experiences can't really be 'proven' to anyone else, they're my beliefs and I really wouldn't expect anyone else to take them as more than that. However, when someone comes up to me and says they can control fire, they're claiming to have a power that could be clearly demonstrated in real time in the physical world, so it should be pretty easy to prove or disprove... but again, for all the claims I've seen, no one is interested in taking that step.

I have always found that those who brag about their magical prowess are often the ones that can't do squat. I have no problem with anyone's skepticism either. I think that any magician so well practiced that they can perform such a feat will likely turn out to be the typed that keeps that sort of thing to themselves and doesn't make a circus act out of their magic to impress others. Ego is one of the pitfalls in magic. Such a magician would already know this and have nothing to prove. It's the role players that are out seeking your admiration of their alleged skill and you're right to think that they won't perform because they simply can't do it.

I have personally blown myself up magically by doing rituals that left me bed ridden for a week or better. If all one ever does is a bit of candle magic and sprinkling some salt on your doorstep then much of the greater skills of magic will be unknown to the practitioner. I hate to bring up cursing as well but it is an easy example of magic that can be seen to fulfillment if one ever finds themselves on the receiving end of one. I have had the unfortunate experience of being cursed and in an odd way it was fascinating to watch the effects unfold and it became an educational experience for me. Even seeing full bodied shadows and spirits carrying out the hex and watching my life fall apart for a while until I could get a handle on the situation would have been cool if it didn't cause me such havoc. If an adept wanted to show a non magical person that magic is real by means of a curse such as the one I experienced and they themselves began to see shadow people and be kept awake at night by beings poking and touching them all night, it wouldn't be long before their doubts were replaced by an understanding that magic is quite real and that something very real was happening to them. Such an experiment is of course unethical and would create unwanted energetic ties between the magician and the target but it could be done.

All that I am saying is that as magicians we spend a great deal of time practicing a craft that most people scoff at and would call us silly, crazy and gullible for believing in as it stands without fire manipulation. I am not willing to write of elemental manipulation as impossible simply because I never seen a bloke do it before. We weave elemental magic into our rituals quite often and that is already manipulating and working with the element. I'm just not prepared to put a cap on what else can and can not be done with it. That's all.

Xiao Rong wrote:

Eliphas Blackthorn wrote:Not disagreeing but this is exacly how muggles feel about all magic period! and yet...

Yeah, that's definitely true; I've always been more on the skeptic side of things (although I have come around to believing some stuff). Again, like Siona said, I know that magic and rituals are definitely effective from a psychological or emotional point of view. But I do think that it would take a lot more for me to believe that magic can so directly bend or break the laws of physics, which is why I tend to be more skeptical of claims like, "I can move __ with my mind" or "I can start fires with my mind" -- these things can be easily proven. In my experience, magic is a subtle influence, not a superpower. So I'm far more inclined to believe that, psychological effects aside, that it can influence probability to produce synchronous events (for example, I have definitely experienced dozens of times when I've pulled just the right Tarot card). But even then, I still always entertain the notion that it COULD be all just chance.

Ah gotcha. Ok well I respect what you are saying and this enlightens me that we are very different in our perceptions of magic.

I feel any number of things that we think are not possible have a basis in reality. Though science has not yet defined it.
It's a tired old argument but I will use it here anyway. Look at the mother that lifts a car off of her child saving the child's life. When asked to re-lift the car she was unable. Magic? Super human strength? Or maybe human ability previously unknown.
I once pushed a most irritating fly out a car window by energy force from the palm of my projection hand.
Quite unconsciously, but out he went anyway from about 12 inches away from the window. I've tried many times since but have never repeated that feat.
Someday, maybe.

1st Chosen wrote: It's a tired old argument but I will use it here anyway. Look at the mother that lifts a car off of her child saving the child's life. When asked to re-lift the car she was unable. Magic? Super human strength? Or maybe human ability previously unknown.

I'm not sure that's the best example to use, as this exact sort of thing has been studied and has a scientific explanation. It's not magic or some superhuman ability, it's just standard biological fight or flight pumping someone with adrenaline, etc, which allows for this sort of ability. Similarly that sort of feat is well documented, but fire control and all that? Not so much. I mean I'm not trying to say well oh, it's impossible, but I think it's very unlikely, and really is the sort of claim we all should be quite skeptical about.

One of the first recorded cases of pyrokinesis or fire-bending was that of A.W. Underwoodof Paw Paw, Michigan. Dr. L.C. Woodman wrote about him in Michigan Medical News and later in the book "Phenomena, a Book of Wonders" by John Michell and Robert Rickard:

I have a singular phenomenon in the shape of a young man living here, that I have studied with much interest, and I am satisfied that his peculiar power demonstrates that electricity is the nerve force beyond dispute. His name is Wm. Underwood, aged 27 years, and his gift is that of generating fire through the medium of his breath, assisted by manipulations with his hands. He will take anybody's handkerchief, and hold it to his mouth, and rub it vigorously with his hands while breathing on it, and immediately it bursts into flames and burns until consumed. He will strip and rinse out his mouth thoroughly, wash his hands and submit to the most rigid examination to preclude the possibility of any humbug, and then by his breath blown upon any paper or cloth envelop it in flame. He will, while out gunning and without matches desirous of a fire lie down after collecting dry leaves and by breathing on them start the fire.

The Russian psychic Nina Kulagina, also known as Nelya Mikhailova was also claimed and said to have produced fire instantaneously.

In an interview in the March 14, 1976 issue of Sunday People, Parapsychologist and Psychotronics Investigator Dr. Genady Sergeyev said:

She can draw energy somehow from all around her; electrical instruments can prove it. On several occasions, the force rushing into her body left four-inch-long burn-marks on her arms and hands...I was with her once when her clothing caught fire from this energy flow. It literally flamed up. I helped put out the flames and saved some of the burned clothing as an exhibit.

In the Philippines I and my spiritual circle personally have come across a little girl in Antique who can produce fire simply by mind power. She can set paper, clothes, and pillows ablaze through sheer mental power and affirmation. Among the people who witnessed the girl's power are the City Mayor and the town police chief.

Now about mastering it, as I shared in the thread I made a year ago in Psychic Ability, Precognitive Dreams, Empathy Forum. I believe through deep concentration one can develop a power such as this. Just like the Tibetan monks who are able to generate body heat, so hot it can dry wet sheets and blankets covering their body.

The Buddhists say the heat they generate is a byproduct of the "thoughtful friction". This subtle force results from the two thoughts being pressed together closely in subconscious mind, causing attractive forces between energies of different thoughts. It's like when we feel both anxious and angry at the same time, isn't we perspirate? If our body could generate heat then it's theoretically possible to produce fire by mind alone.

I must add in on this one.

If someone was to produce flames from nothing, or start a fire with their mind. That happens on a molecular level. Its not like " spark boom FIRE " it takes much knowledge and practice one would presume to be able to manipulate any force of nature. i.e. all comes from a molecular level. Understanding how things present themselves on that level would be the first step IMO. You can't cross a finish line if you don't even know where the race begins.