Everything Under the Moon

Weird question, I know. Of COURSE dreams are real; everybody's had them haha...but are they really REAL?

...Perhaps a better way of phrasing the question would be, "Is where we go in our dreams, an actual place WITHIN reality, and NOT just in our minds?"

The reason I ask is because I've kinda had a theory that wherever it is that our minds travel to during REM sleep, is perhaps the same place that we go to when we die, which is akin to an alternate dimension; one that, theoretically, we could PHYSICALLY travel to in a transdimensional machine, (like a time machine, but one that travels through alternate dimensions and realities instead of time).

The reason I originally started developing this theory is that all humans seem to have the same kinds of experiences when they dream; the same dream symbols and dream structures and all that jazz; aside from perhaps being in black and white or full color (I've heard some people dream in black and white; not sure if it's true or not because I've always dreamed in full color), people tend to have the same experiences based on the same laws of physics of the "Dream World".

If we've all been there and done the same kinds of things with the same kinds of Dream Symbols and archetypes....it just seems like way too big of a coincidence for it all to be in our own heads; that leaves me with two conclusions to make: Option A: Some unknown force is MAKING people dream in only these particular ways, or Option B: We're all traveling to another world OUTSIDE of our minds, and that world has it's own natural laws of physics just like our world does, they're just different than our world.

I personally like Option B a lot better than Option A, but how can one know for sure? That's not a rhetorical question by the way; I'm genuinely curious as to how to go about getting concrete evidence; I believe in magick and all that jazz, but I believe it can be explained by science as well, and if something can't be explained by science yet then I think that just means we haven't learned the science behind that thing yet; just like how scientists for thousands of years couldn't for the life of them explain how the hell a bumblebee was able to fly because the surface area of it's wings was far to small to lift it. It wasn't until the scientific advancements in slow motion cameras that scientists were finally able to see for themselves that the bumblebee's wings doesn't just provide lift on the downstroke, but generates lift on the upstroke as well. Before that though, it was "scientifically impossible" for bumblebees to be able to fly, yet there they were, lol, breaking the laws of physics in complete mockery of all the intellectuals observing them saying it just couldn't be haha. XD

Sollomyn wrote:The reason I originally started developing this theory is that all humans seem to have the same kinds of experiences when they dream; the same dream symbols and dream structures and all that jazz; aside from perhaps being in black and white or full color (I've heard some people dream in black and white; not sure if it's true or not because I've always dreamed in full color), people tend to have the same experiences based on the same laws of physics of the "Dream World".

I'm not so sure this is true. I mean, as far as symbolism goes, sure you can pick up a dream dictionary and it seems like it's all universal, but dream symbolism tends to be quite personal on deeper inspection. Dream "physics" also seem to work differently for different people. I fly in many of my dreams, my partner never has. My sister can breathe underwater in dreams, I can't. There are certain things that happen so often in my dreams, I know I am dreaming as soon as they begin to happen. But others might rarely have the same theme appear. A lot of people can't tell time in dreams, or read, but some people do without issue, or are able to in some dreams and not in others. I once read that it's impossible for someone to use a light switch in a dream, but I've done it. Phone never, ever work right in my dreams. Ever. Other people dream about using the phone as normal.

When there are similarities, I don't think it's too strange, either. Most people dream about places they know, people they know, run through scenarios common to many people... Like, how many of us dream about going to school, or work? Probably as many that actually go to school or work. Even with themes, symbols, and so on, many people do share a common culture, and we're not as different as we may think. I don't think it's odd that would manifest in dreams.

Which is not to totally discount the idea that our souls might travel during sleep at times. I actually think they do. I believe it is certainly possible to slip into the other world, or receive messages from it, in dreams. I just do not believe it happens with every dream. Like, a few nights ago I played video games for a few hours before bed, and then... dreamed I was playing video games. I probably didn't go to/create a universe exactly like the game I'd just been playing, it was probably just my subconscious running loops about something it was excited about. The same way, for me, it often runs loops about things it might be nervous about, etc.

So, I suppose that could be a third option for you to consider - there is a place we do sometimes travel to in dreams, but perhaps we do not reach that state of dreaming each night/with every dream. Either way, I don't know how you'd prove it, unfortunately.

The reason I ask is because I've kinda had a theory that wherever it is that our minds travel to during REM sleep, is perhaps the same place that we go to when we die, which is akin to an alternate dimension;

You know, I believe it's the Odyssey which states similar. The land of dreams was past the river which separates our physical world from the unseen world. It was, essentially, neighbor to a segment of the unseen world where the dead resided. (The Greek otherworld was separated into several parts, and the dead were found in more than one.) But at the same time, they had deliverers of dreams, the Oneiroi - including the well known Morpheus, but there were others. Even these dream spirits were believed to be able to bring both truthful dreams and "nonsense" dreams.

(It was bothering me, I had to look up the passage, it was in the Odyssey - "So did these ghosts travel on together squeaking, while easeful Hermes led them down [to the Land of the Dead] through the ways of dankness. They passed the streams of Okeanos, the White Rock (petra Leukas), the Gates of the Sun (pylai Hêlioi) and the Land of Dreams (demos oneiroi), and soon they came to the field of asphodel, where the souls (psykhai), the phantoms (eidola) of the dead have their habitation.") The dream spirits lived there, people weren't necessarily believed to go there during dreams, but it is interesting that, like you mentioned, the land of dreams is just one part of the otherworld where people can go when they die.

What is subjective and unconscious in daily life is objective and knowing in dreams.

This "thing" can be called self-memory. Which makes for the conversion that: "Dreams are our way of reminding ourselves of who we really are." Indeed, that "What we dream of reaches us in our lives in a way that astounds (knows better than) us." Sleep is unconscious truth, then.

That much you know. What I would add is that the dream world, being a 'scientifically observable solution to truth', can actually be thought of as 'social!' - heaven knows why.

- Option A: Some unknown force is MAKING people dream in only these particular ways, or
- Option B: We're all traveling to another world OUTSIDE of our minds, and that world has it's own natural laws of physics just like our world does, they're just different than our world.

Your question seems to include whether the things we see & do while dreaming physically exist. Precognitive dreams would suggest a physical reality, but precogs also occur while fully awake & interacting with our environment. There are astral plane dreams i guess you'd call other dimension experiences, and mutually aware interaction with other people in shared dreams. There are alien abduction dreams that leave physical evidence of implants & punctures. What is "awake" or dream" & what is "mind"? Can they be separated?

These are within natural laws of physics & consciousness. Why must they be "outside" the mind? Maybe it's the individual person's mind's natural function as part of a greater whole. It's kind of like scuba diving used as a metaphor. You enter a different world with different beings, different physical laws (like no air &' pressure changes) but you're still within the Earth's realm which is the greater mind; the need for an air tank is the personal conscious experience, & the water is the dream realm. It's still one physical & real location, inter-connected, & thru which the individual consciousness moves at will. The whole thing is "Mind", not just the localized experience of air tank breathing.

This is something I have thought many times as there appears to be several distinct kinds of dreams... And one of those is the absolutely real ones which feel meaningful and "too much" to be just something made up by the mind.

Btw, I have also had alien abduction dreams or dreams which just have to do with aliens and UFO's. I have never noticed physical marks after them though. (I've had weird marks on me appear out of nowhere, but can't remember if any happened after one of those dreams.)

Anyway, some dreams just feel all too real or weird to be just my mind playing tricks. I wish we knew the truth about this.

"All we see and all we seem is but a dream within a dream" Poe

Since approximately 1/3 or more of life is spent asleep, maybe our waking is the dream and we are only visiting "life" from "the astral grid"

Bb, FF

firebirdflys wrote:"All we see and all we seem is but a dream within a dream" Poe

Since approximately 1/3 or more of life is spent asleep, maybe our waking is the dream and we are only visiting "life" from "the astral grid"

Bb, FF

I don't know which way is scarier.

Maybe dreamland is the true reality and this is just some weird type of SIMS game.

I dreamed I was at Disneyland with the Obama family. That was one of those weird ones that made no sense.

SnowCat wrote:I dreamed I was at Disneyland with the Obama family. That was one of those weird ones that made no sense.

I believe that means, according to my knowledge of dreaming, that you never had to take them seriously. Lucky you..

Probably has more to do with wanting to go to Disneyland.

SnowCat wrote:Probably has more to do with wanting to go to Disneyland.

Mmmm. Dreaming is forgetting a want.

Don't worry I had a grand time when Obama was president but the devil was totally empowered in the universe, even satan got it wrong. He is probably a fantastic guy, but the spiritual knowledge was "love dies"... I learned a lot about immortality.

SnowCat wrote:Probably has more to do with wanting to go to Disneyland.

You were wishing for an E ticket ride perhaps?

I think I just really need a vacation.