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Sick of Jehovah's Witnesses

Discussion of Christianity and other religious systems. How can we explain our faith to Christians? How can you merge your faith in Jesus with your belief in the metaphysical?

Postby Release.the.bats » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:05 pm

[quote="infinight888]although evolution is taught as a fact there is NO actual PROOF which is why it's called Darwin’s theory.[/quote]

Your correct.
However, scientistis hold more truth to theories than facts.
It's a rather interesting concept, but yeah.
Theories hold more value to a scientist than something considered factual.
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Postby Release.the.bats » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:16 pm

@jackrabbitslims:
I understand why you think it doesn't make sense to believe in evolution.
I feel similarly.
There is a girl in my art internship who is from a christian high school [actually 3 of them], but somehow evolution was brought up and I was just listening.
And she said that she thinks it is wrong to believe we evolved from monkeys and that evolution requires a lot of faith to believe in.
I simply sat listening and I thought it ironic that she didn't see that believing in either a spiritual or scientific explanation for why we are here requires faith.
I kind of understand her point in that inter species evolution seems a bit far fetched to the average person who hasn't been truly educated on science as a whole. Or sometimes to people who have.
But, my problem is that you cannot deny evolutionary advances we have discovered.
Like skeletal remains of humanoid creatures covered in fur.
Or even that alligators and crocodiles are from the dinosaur age [as I call it. haha] and they look basically the same, untouched for over thousands of years. Only smaller. How did they get smaller?
Evolution.
Evolution makes sense to me because it provides an answer for why things change and develop over many many years, to explain that we are thoroughly influenced by our creations and especially by nature.
Why did we loose fur?
We didn't need as much anymore.
Why do we still have fur, only much more finer, but it's all over our bodies?
Because we still need some fur to protect from the cold.
That's why we get 'goose bumps', our follicles retract so that it provides a protective covering over the area [arms, legs etc.] to help protect against the cold.
Why do we have molars but we don't need them?
Because our ancestors had larger jaws than us and used them to aid in mastication of tough meats and plants.
Why do we have an appendix when it is almost useless?
Because our ancestors began herbivorous and it aided in digestion of plants and berries.

All of this makes sense when you think about it.
We came from something that obviously doesn't completely mirror who we are now.

Sorry I got a bit carried away.
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Postby Her_Child » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:45 pm

Well Shadow I think you have us all beat! Never tried the ol' Glock trick. Hehee
I used to get alot of the JW's and I must admit at first it was refreshing to have a good old fashion religious debate. After awhile though it became quite irritating, so I stumbled across a sign one of my roommates had laying around which read

"Come back later, Witches at Work"

Placed the sign neatly in the window to the left of the front door and never took it down. No more visitors after that.
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Postby hicksfan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:40 pm

infinight888 wrote:although evolution is taught as a fact there is NO actual PROOF which is why it's called Darwin’s theory.


have fun playing with the terminology, but you're comparing the theory of evolution with hypothesis and speculation. there's clear chronological and morphological intermediation found throughout the fossil record. for all intents and purposes, the theory of evolution is provable. but please, have fun with the joke.
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Postby hicksfan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:49 pm

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-mis ... html#proof

"Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved."

First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.
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Postby hummingbird3 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:05 pm

evolution is a theory. so is gravity.
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Postby Imiko » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:47 pm

hummingbird3 wrote:evolution is a theory. so is gravity.


So we all just randomly stick down to the earth for no apparent reason, whilst every thing else in space floats around aimlessly? So we can just flap our arms and fly off the earth? So if I drop my Telephone, It'll end up floating? :lol:
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Postby hummingbird3 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:14 pm

technicly, gravity is a theory, but we all know its real. my point is that you cant deny somethings existance just because its a theory.
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Postby hicksfan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:51 am

there is more debate in the scientific community about the mechanics of gravity than evolution.
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Postby Teresa-xo » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:52 am

yeah, i've had a few run ins with jehovas :wink: every time they come around they get so aggressive! my mum and i just laugh :P

my mum is a catholic, my dad is a protestant and I am goddess-only-knows-what! i was brought up originally catholic, and even though my mum believes in catholic principles (with a liberal mind - she knows that science disproves things, and recognises that it was written a loooong time ago and attitudes change! :D) she's very tolerant of everything else. I was always given the choice of going to church and thankfully, her church wasn't old fashioned. Everyone was accepted. I basically was brought up with the idea that as long as you are generally a good person - no matter what religion you are you'll be fine.

So when this Jehova turned up on my doorstep my mum explained how all of our household had different beliefs, we're happy and tolerant of others and safely know that our God(s) and/or Goddess(s) will be happy that we are good people.

She then went on - to my amusement - to smile in pity at this jehova and say how sorry she felt for her, that she is unable to realise that by forcing her beliefs on people and telling people they are doomed forever and trying to "scare" people into doing what she wants (aka be converted) is not very nice and will probably come back to bite her in the ass!

Needless to say - they've not been back ;)
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Postby sheelanagig » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:05 pm

JackRabbitSlims wrote:They believe that Humans and dinosaurs lived together


Image

The Carving shown above is thought to be a Stegosaur (Stegosaur stenops) on an ancient Cambodian temple at Angkor Wat.

The above photo is from:-

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/dino-cambodia

There is evidence that mankind and dinosaurs did co-exist together.

See the links below for more information.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dinocarving.html

http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/dinosaurs.shtml

Take this as you will :roll: :lol: :shock:

I just remembered finding this information a couple of years ago when researching another topic :)

Image
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Postby hicksfan » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:19 pm

you might have an argument if it weren't for that pesky layer of iridium that separates their remains from ours.
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Postby hicksfan » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:28 pm

and this part "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox." blows the dinosaur theory out of the water... they had much simpler jawbone construction than any bovine. it was more than likely referring to a hippo.
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What a thread!

Postby Peregrine » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:52 pm

Where do I even begin? I'm glad Hicksfan explained the difference for me, between the term "theory" in the common use of the term and "theory" in the scientific world.

Gravity is not a theory; it is a law. Again, the scientific definition of law differs from the common terms. A law is the highest status. Nothing has been found to prove it wrong and it is expected that nothing will be. Theory is one step short of law, meaning the evidence is very strong, quickly pointing towards law.

I have watched a lot shows about this on PBS and other "nerd channels." It seems actually that the Theory of Evolution, for all intensive purposes, has passed so many rigorous tests that the scientific community would like to promote it to law. Yet they refrain because of the all-predictable outcry from creationists (or "intelligent design" as they now try to call it).

The biggest weakness for creationists is the confused notion that if only they can make people doubt evolution, that everyone will come running to their particular brand of creation by default. They have little or nothing to "prove" their case for creationism save mostly Bible scriptures, so their only motive is to try to discredit evolution.

It ignores the fact that many Christian faiths have come to terms with both sides and have become "theistic evolutionists." In other words, they believe evolution happened based on scientific evidence but that God simply took his time; that Genesis is not to be understood literally but poetically. Some of the biggest defenders of evolution at Belief Net are Christians, one of them in particular a Lutheran friar.

As for your problem with Jehovah's Witnesses, I am sorry to hear that. I have never had any issues with them myself. I've had a few cyberbuddies and co-workers who were JW's. Never once did I ever feel harassed by them. They seemed like very nice, even-tempered people. When JW's come to door, I just smile and politely say, "No, thank you," and they leave.

I am familiar with some of their beliefs. At least they do not worship a god that would destroy me in everlasting fire if I do not let him save me. When I was a soul-searching quasi-atheist, I appreciated one issue we had in common... They believe I will not be resurrected when I die, that my death would be permanent, if I did not follow their god. I believed likewise, that dead is dead and I would not go anywhere but a grave upon my death.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Postby frisbee » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 pm

Your best bets to get rid of JW's

1. Insist they have a cigarette, and if you smoke, light one in their presence.

2. Insist they have a beer, and if you drink, open one in their presence, guzzle, and belch.

3. Insist on leading the JWs in a prayer to your Pagan deity. Yeah, they won't want to stay around for that.

4. Just smile and say you are a Goddess-worshipping Pagan who has no interest in their dead religion.

5. If none of the above works, tell the JWs you were in the middle of having sex with your boyfriend or girlfriend, who is lying naked on the couch and still very aroused. That'll send them crying back to the Kingdom Hall! (Do this only if children aren't present, of course!)

I'll say one nice thing about JWs. Since they don't vote or get involved in government, they're at least not using politics to shove their beliefs on us, like other American Christians do!
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." --George Carlin
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