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Love, Don't Hate

Discussion of Christianity and other religious systems. How can we explain our faith to Christians? How can you merge your faith in Jesus with your belief in the metaphysical?

Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peaceful Soul » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:13 pm

Merry Meet!

I would love to be very blunt with this, but since it is such a touchy and contraversial subject, I'll have to explain my reasoning. I am sorry if I offend any of you, but I have gotten to the point where I honestly can't stand it anymore. And the sad part is, everyone on this site is just as bad as every Christian out there!

I was going through some old posts here, and I came across this very aggrivating one, link below:
any-one-else-feel-insulted-this-anti-wicca-page-t9488.html

Now, it wouldn't have been so aggrivating if people learned to be open-minded, and actually tried to understand where the Christians are coming from. As someone who does not have a degree in Theology, but one that has explored just about every religion out there, I will make it so you can understand easier. The Christian Bible, every form of it, says that practicing witchcraft is a sin. I believe it is usually in the book of Luke, but I honestly do not know, as this changes from version to version. Okay, they worship their God DIFFERENTLY. Is this so bad? I honestly don't see why we have to attack Christians for that, and yes I have caught some of you doing so. I am sure that I don't need to mention any other Pagan religions, but I will anyway: Hindu, they have a different way of worshipping every one of their gods and goddesses. Eclectics, self-explanatory. Wiccans, you worship God and Goddess by rituals and rites. Point is, EVERY RELGION IS DIFFERENT. I am going to "take sides," for a lack of a better phrase, to give you a standpoint on both Christianity and Paganism. First will be Pagans.

As a Pagan, we have certain responsibilities to our environment. Most of us respect those responsibilities, very few don't. There are some of us (you know who you are) that do convert to Paganism as a reason to become a tree hugger, the sad truth. Most pagan religions teach us not to mess with black magick, very little grey, and almost all white. There are religions that say black magick is good, mostly those who practice certain forms of voodoo, and the Satanics. All fine and dandy, and I am perfectly okay with that, and I am prepared to retaliate if one of them tries to curse me. Now, we perform the type of magick we do based on what we perceive to be right. Satanics, for example, say that they must bring Satan into this world. The only way they believe to be able to do this is through black magick. Wiccans on the other hand, they believe that harming someone is wrong, "An' it harm none, do as ye will!" That is taken stright from the Wiccan Rede. They have their own way of worshipping their deities. So why do Christians attack us for no reason? Why can't they just mine their own business? WHY DON'T THEY JUST LEAVE US ALONE?

Christians believe that whitchcraft is wrong. There is only one true god, and that is God himself. Those who believe in multiple forms of him are evil and worship Satan, for he is the root of all evil. The thought that Pagans can control the forces of nature is absolutely obsurd, and it should not be allowed to be practiced. They believe that this nation was founded on Christianity, that no other religion should be allowed. They worship their God through prayer, and they believe that if they practice witchcraft, they are instantly worshipping Satan and will recieve eternal punishment in Hell instantly.

Now I belive that the worshippers in both religions are wrong. If that is the way you think you must act, then you are wrong. If you believe that each should practice their own beliefs, you are wrong. If you believe that there is only one true path, you are wrong. If you believe that witchraft worships Satan, you are wrong. If you believe that Christians are overstepping their boundaries, you are wrong. If you so much as sneeze an ill word of another person that isn't true or honest, then you are wrong. DO YOU SEE WHAT I AM GETTING AT? EVERYONE IS IN THE WRONG, INCLUDING MYSELF FOR THIS MATTER.

As a human being, we are seeking to find answers beyond comprehension. I am a Wiccan. I do not say I am right, you are wrong, nor do I say leave me alone about your beleifs. If you come to tell me about your beliefs with a close-mind, don't even bother because I won't listen. We, as humans, need to see everything as if we are in the third person contantly, as if we are our own audience. Please, stop trying to convert each other. Listen to each other with an open mind. Don't ever say there is no hope left. Don't ever say you are the only right one in the world. I am going to close by saying, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask. If you are going to leave an anger comment, hate comment, or a closed-minded comment, don't bother. You'll just be proving my point even more. And I will leave you with two quotes, one on religion, one on truth:

"I believe in the fundamental truth of all religions. I believe they are all god-given. I believe they are all true, and all hold some err in them." ~Mahatma Gandhi

"Get your facts straight first, then you can distort them as you please." ~Mark Twain
Have a wounderful day and Blessed Be!

"I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity."
~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby 13Lotuses » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:16 pm

My thoughts exactly! Well put, Peaceful Soul. I was considering writing about this subject, but you seem to have covered everything :-)

Many Blessings,

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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peregrine » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:15 am

Everyone at this site is as bad as every Christian out there? Do you know all of them that well already? :lol:

I've been coming to these boards off and on since 2006 and never once felt preached at or attacked, even when I practiced angelology especially with Cassiel (and that was even over a year before his appearance as "Castiel" in the TV series "Supernatural" :lol: ). Oh, every so often there were disagreements and debates but that is to be expected whenever you have a lot of people together in one room. I never lost sleep about it. I have absolutely no clue what it is that upset you so much but then again I've been gone a while. You should have been here during the days when ShadowX and GreyMalkin were here. :lol:

I would suggest you read the thread about sharing the gospel with a pagan. In that article, it explains that a lot of Pagans used to be Christians so many of us do indeed know where Christians are "coming from." (FYI: If you believe Satanists worship Satan, you are wrong. At least that's true of the LaVeyans. Ah the irony.) What exactly was said in that thread that upset you so much? :)

As for other paths, I don't apologize one bit for my overall indifference (within reason, of course). It is their business and their lives. All I ask is to be allowed to study and pursue on my own what I have learned as well. I'm not trying to force my ideas on anyone else but I have been on the receiving end of it more than I care to remember, sometimes even from other Pagans (though that is rare). I do like to compare notes from time to time, however. Sharing information is not the same as preaching. I like reading different POV's and about different gods.

If Christians want to worship Jehovah differently, that is their business but I've witnessed often how different factions do not want to leave each other be. Ditto Islam with Allah. They believe in one truth (theirs) and can get very aggressive. I'm not saying that is the way they all behave but many of them are stuck under a religion of fear that says all must convert to their way or else suffer eternal torture. If I point out how many different factions there are, it is not an attack; it is merely a statement of fact whenever they lay sole claim to truth (as many of them will). When that is thrust on me, I will defend myself against such things. With some rare exceptions, Hindus, Buddhists, etc do not go about attacking one another for following different paths. In fact, I've seen Hindus and Buddhists encourage people to remain with what is familar. I mention this in a thread I titled "Melting the Fear."

Not attacking you for your opinion here. Just wondering what upset you exactly, as someone who has been walking my own gauntlets both off and on the internet for almost two years now. People believe I'm worshipping the devil because of my meditations on Enki my divine Shaman and Promethian teacher, and Enlil my protector and breath of life. I do not worship them, but I do honor them as my guides like a student with teachers. I believe in the Hindu story about the blind men and the elephant myself. Personally I believe all religions have tapped into some aspect of truth, the rest is unnecessary manmade baggage, but none have sole claim to it. It's a lot more complicated than any of us could have imagined.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Truthseeker » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:03 pm

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong--to somebody.
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peaceful Soul » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:44 pm

Unless you are talking about facts, right and wrong are relative to the person. I just have a round-about way of saying it...and a very extesive one as well...
Have a wounderful day and Blessed Be!

"I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity."
~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peregrine » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm

You seemed very upset. I was trying to get at specifics of what exactly upset you to see if this could be talked out and resolved. What are the specifics that provoked such an extensive post on everybody's behavior here, and I mean everybody, and all of the Christians out there as well, by your own words?

I consider myself open-minded, but as with anything I have to draw a line. I don't want my mind to be so open, my brain falls out of my skull and plops onto the floor.

It also just suprised me to see that a 15 year old has already explored so many of them, perhaps even all of them. I have been out of the church for almost 20 years exploring many paths and have learned that I still have yet a lot to learn. :D

I mean no disrespect, here. The grievances are just extremely vague, with sweeping generalizations.

FYI: There are factions of environmentally conscious Christians in the world, believing that Jehovah commands mankind to be "good stewards of the land" as stated in Genesis, when Adam was created to care for Yahweh's garden. They do not believe that "dominion" means a greenlight to be destructive.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peregrine » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:37 pm

A PS to my previous comment: You appear to be too uncomfortable with specifiying what upset you in a public forum. That is understandable. I was not trying to be your ankle-biter, merely trying to help hash out what it is that upset you so much. Unless I can see specifics on what upset you this much, nobody will be able to help you. Unless you can be honest with yourself, specific with what aggravated you so much, you will not even be able to help yourself.

I am not a "Satanic" as you put it, but as far as I know, Satanists do not believe in instigating trouble. In fact, it is one of their cardinal sins, to do harm to an innocent as they put it. They are not interested in starting fights, but if someone does try to start trouble with them, they will not hesitate to use black magic at that point if they consider it necessary. Forgot to mention that in a previous post.

There are glaring errors in other things you've said but again, unless we know specifics of why you "just can't stand it anymore," this cannot be helped. Just helping in getting facts straight, before they can get distorted. :wink:

Pardon if I appear feisty in a giddy sort of way. I've done a few of my own aura cleansings and other things so I've been feeling a bit "frisky" the last few days (as my husband put it); just think of Thor in the movie "Thor" when he says at the diner, "This drink is delicious. I'LL HAVE MORE!" as he happily smashes the mug onto the floor to other people's annoyance. I'm feeling more energized than I have in months.

Also, I just have been around these boards off and on since 2006 and there are so many good people here who have helped me when I felt like I had nowhere else to go, so no I do not like seeing sweeping generalizations about them all as though they are bad people. Nobody has ever tried to convert me here, either. Keep in mind these boards go way back, starting at least in 2004. These boards have been moved to a new server, but I know that thread goes back to 2004 at least. It has actually been kind of fun to watch the various reactions over the years. There comes a point when you have to say that people are people, and we all need our places to vent our frustrations as you just did, showing such dislike towards all pagans here and all the Christians out there, by your own words. :D
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby 13Lotuses » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:31 pm

If I will be permitted to assert my humble opinion here...

The original post was intended as a reminder that both Paganism and Christianity have the occasional idiot in their masses of followers. It was also meant to remind us not to BE those idiots. This is not to say anyone here is, but rather to say that it seems pointless to squabble amongst ourselves over minutia.
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peaceful Soul » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:33 pm

Peregrine

I am sorry it took so long to respond again, as I have been busy with district band (and now moving on to regionals).

The original post was a generalization, you are correct in that manner. I do not take disrespect in your comments as I do understand you are trying to keep it as civil as possible.

Nobody on this forum has been completely closed minded that I have been in contact with, yet. I do not know if there is someone as I know I have not made contact with a majority of the people here. If you went on to the link, and looked around at some posts, people are nasty. Some have said comments on a subject like this, and I do not believe it is neccessary. I'm not saying that is their final voice of opinion, but that it was said nonetheless. I am not going to single people out, and I surely won't say they are not allowed to have their personal views, but that they need not make harsh comments.

The reason for my aggrivation are people. One of my favourite quotes is from the movie Men In Black, and it is as follows: "A person is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals." It was sait by Agent K. He was completely correct, as a single person is much wiser than two, or even four. This is because it only takes one person to understand something, and humans have a state of perception, which is again relative to the person. If two people percieve something different, then you have a discrepency, which a third party will then only percieve part of the true story, which another third party percieved something different, and they pass it on, and so on. This goes on until the message gets messed up and you have chaos, which is mankind's only form of purity (in my personal opinion that it). It is basically a much more derranged game of thelephone.

The reason for my aggrivation is not important, just that people are like that and I am doing everything I can to try to prevent it for the better of the population, so that in the life-long game of thelephone, the message stays as intact as possible, that we are all different, and that we are going to stay different for the rest of eternity.

By the way, I never said that Satannics go around finding random people to harm for no good reason, but that they think that black magick is okay, which is much different. As you said, they will not hesitate to use it if the need arises, as many other Pagan religions forbid it altogether. Huge difference as to what I meant, which goes to prove my point of perception.

Hope this clears up what I meant.
Have a wounderful day and Blessed Be!

"I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity."
~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peregrine » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:40 am

LULZ. Glad to see you are fine. I was worried I came across too strong, I've been going through my own little transformations lately and it has made me feel a bit punchy at times. I think it was John Lennon who once said, "I want to help mankind. It's just people I can't stand." Something like that so I know what you mean. :D I talk with people online who are suprised to actually interact (even if it is on the internet) with a polytheist. If it's an atheist, I just tell them you know the old saying, "Something this crazy could have only been put together by a committee." Thomas Paine's key word is "motion" but I also see friction, collision, etc and think polytheism myself. I guess after walking my own gauntlet for a while, a lot of what is said there does not phase me at all. (Thus, in part, my cheeky comment about how not even a lot of Satanists worship Satan in regards to Enki and Enlil. :lol: I would not even call it worship but that is another digression. ) I'm not even talking about behavior from Christians only but also atheists (or "anti-theists") and other factions when internet fights break out. Ever want to see a really ugly fight, just stand with your back up against the wall and watch a forum or YouTube comment section where Hindus and Muslims start going at each other, with the occasional Sikh to keep it interesting. :shock: :lol: OUCH!
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peaceful Soul » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:34 pm

Peregrine

Religous and political (especially over controversial laws that are pending) debates are the best! They never get boring, and you always have that one that comes in and puts both sides down (usually me). Last one I did that with was the recent terrorism bill, which everyone said imposed upon our rights. You have the side who says it does, and the side who says it doesn't, and they both refuse to listen to reason until someone goes in and proves them both wrong. Same thing with religion; which is what I was getting at. Keep your mind open and prove everyone wrong, even yourself, and you will see everything the way it is meant to be.
Have a wounderful day and Blessed Be!

"I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity."
~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peregrine » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:58 pm

I should have said "tongue in cheek" instead of "cheeky" in my last post. There's a difference. Eh, well. Back to discussion at hand.

I try to hear out a lot of sides myself and it can be wearisome at times. Sometimes it can be hard to find a solution. Then I have to ask myself why I think I'm supposed to find a solution. Heh heh. Some people are voicing legit concerns or real woes on one extreme and then on another there are those who just want to fight. Then there are the mixtures. Sometimes it is hard to tell. Some people just want the impossible or do not realize what harm could be done if their little wishes were seriously carried out. I remember watching a back-and-forth duel for a long time, a YouTube drama between two men, both atheists, and I felt myself do a Roxanne Ritchie (from "Megamind"), letting out a groan and saying, "Girls! Girls! You're BOTH pretty!" Heh heh.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

~Henry Drummond, "Inherit the Wind" (1960)
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby Peaceful Soul » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:49 pm

I know what that's like...only I normally interveen between an argument of a Satannic, Atheist, Hindu, Agnostic, Wiccan and a couple Christians. It gets really nasty at some times, others it's just plain fun to watch! But they don't say, 'I'm right, you're wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it!' That is what I am addressing, saying don't do it, and be civil when you get into a debate.
Have a wounderful day and Blessed Be!

"I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity."
~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Love, Don't Hate

Postby The Judge » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:50 pm

Well stated. I have been known to, on occasion, spark a debate or two with Christians. However, I try to keep them civil for the most part. As it was pointed out, there are a few that will attack anything they see as different. But there are many out there who are willing to sit down and have an intelligent discussion without pointing fingers. We each made our references, pointed to what we thought was relevant and we all learned something about the other. This is the point of a debate. Whitewashing a group of people for any reason is wrong. It's stereotyping and segrigating. Both words meaning nearly the same thing.

I read a bit of the topic that started this one. I haven't read the responses, though. The site it linked to was a bit over the top. I see nothing wrong with Christianity, but there are a few nuts in every jar. Regardless of topic I have to look twice at anyone who states that rock music came from Hell. lol. But regardless. The person was only stating what they believed was to be true by their perspective. This is not a universal perception but the perception of one person. It may not be accurate from our perspective but who are we to say otherwise. People were given free will and the ability to make their own judgments, whether they be based on factual information or not is not for us to decide.

When I start debates my only purpose is to provide additional facts for them to perhaps see a bit more of the picture. They attempt to do the same and I do my best to see it. From what I gathered in the opening post, the other topic was more an argument than anything else. Best we don't continue to agree with eachothers ignorance, but continue one of the purposes of this site, which is education. We are all here to learn from the oldest to the newest member. One thing to remember is that there is always something more to learn, no one has all the information. But a pool of information from many different people may fill some of the gaps in the knowledge of the Whole. :)

I will leave you with this line though I can't remember who said it. "A debate is an exchange of information, an arguement and exchange of ignorance"

Bright Blessings to all of you. :)
Do not attempt, Achieve
Do not hear, Listen
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Do not judge, Understand
Do not forget, for in this you shall learn nothing
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