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How to save the environment

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How to save the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:21 am

So, I'm really getting mad at all those "Green witches". No offence meant, there are perfect Green witches who do a lot for the environment, but then there are those, who just bash modern technology and promote a "back to nature"-philosophy, cause they are actually thinking, that would safe the environment. Cause they are actually thinking people in the past were living in harmony with the nature. They were not. Most were destroying the nature even more than your average human does today. The problem is we now are many more people and we have the ability to not only destroy one island but the whole ecosystem of the planet.

So, how to safe the environment? It's not done by back to the nature, cause we are to many. That won't work. It would work, if we kill all like 99% of the people. Which will surely happening anyways, when we stop to use electrcity, clean water, medicine and go back to nature. We will still be killing nature then, but since we aren't mobile anymore, we will only do so locally, and since we aren't many, this really only matter in a small scale.

So, how to safe the environment without having an average life span of 30?

Use technology. Yeah, really, Technology is the answer.

Develop: Actually everyone can develop something that contributes a little to green technology. Something the people want to use, cause it looks nice, is easy to use and is better for the ecology.

Be an aware consumer: Buy technolgy, but the green one.

Multiply: Talk with people about good and bad technology, talk wbout how technolgy is changing out environment and how it is our duty to see it is changing in the right way.

Support: If you think you aren't able to develop something (actually everyone is able but on a differenet scale) then do something to support others developing. Buy your children a set of lego and encourage them for technology, support a student with money so he can study engeneering. Encourage others to learn, use, talk and develop technology that is helping the environment.


Cause it's not the harmony of human and nature we seek anymore, it's the harmony of human, nature and technology we need right now. Everyone counts. The human mind and soul is a creative one (all you witches should know that), we were always forming our environment and changing it. The challenge today is using technology to form a true harmony between human and nature. The first technology we made (probably a stick, later the fire) was destroying the harmony. Now we have for the first time the chance to restore it, but only if we develop technology.

I've changed my researchfield to how to educate about technology and the relevance for our socio-economic-system. That is what I contribute. I may develop some prototypes, but my main work in the next years will be done educating people about technology and how to use it. I'm being a multiplier and supporter now. I hope I will reach many. So what are you doing?
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby pelias3 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:57 pm

i'm glad you're not advocating the (hopefully voluntary) removal of 99% of the human population Traumwandlerin! i remember doing a two week course at university (1987 so its been a little while) and we paid lots of attention to the number of children being born and the annual percentage increase in population of lots of third world or developing countries and that there was a UN estimate that the human population would top 12 billion with fifty years! well we're thirty three years on from that estimate and it looks like we're fall plenty short of it (apparently the 7th billion living human will be born sometime this year). i can't say i'm disappointed. it seems that without half the effort we all thought there SHOULD be in terms of family planning people's good sense has kicked in and stopped them having quite so many children. that seems to be less about technology (condoms, implants etc) and more about a little well aimed education. that said i still do totally agree with you T. this planet can't support us if we all want to live like americans! we've already mined most of a few very important metals and probably reached "peak oil" or very nearly so. we have to find a sustainable way and all living on smallholdings growing our own food sadly isn't it! i'd love a smallholding. i'd love to be that in touch with nature and know i grew or gathered every mouthful of food, but there just isn't enough land that could GROW food to do it in such a massively inefficient way. cities will have to become farms and powerstations and wildlife preserves. how about skyscrapers with window boxes (in a sense not exactly like that! i wouldn't want one to fall on my head from 25 stories up!). mind, i'm having a hard time imagining the glass of water i'm drinking having been urine only 48hours before. i dare say that in time the human population is likely to go down through a totally natural process of attrition rather than from some governmental pressure but until that time comes we'll have to each work a little harder and perhaps have to come to terms with living a slightly more frugal lifestyle? if you have a computer that does just about everything how many gadgets do you really need?

oh! and everyone says the stone age was the most sustainable period that ever existed? have you ever tried to find good flint?!! some places in the UK were almost mined out by the time bronze came along! mines going down 50ft just for some good flint nodes! unsustainable lifestyles aren't new.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:33 pm

Hehe, I'm glad anyone read this thread. It seems this is just a very unpopular topic cause it's about how to really live along with nature ;) It's not about all those nice "I have my own garden and I do my own paper". It's really about studying and inventing and learning about the stuff people think is hard to undersand and the cause of the nature going downhill. But really, it's in the nature of the humans to destroy the nature with their creations, creation is in the nature of humanity. So all we need to learn is how to do creations that's not only not destroying our earth but will enhance the ecology while at the same time fullfill our needs and wants.

One want of course may be having out own garden and live close to earth and nature. We have to accept, that this is just a want and nothing that will contribute to the nature. We have to think how this is possible while at the same time not destroying but doing a favor for nature.

It's about finding harmony in a lifestyle we want and building an healthy environment. This will only be possible, if people will invent.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Ravencry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:29 pm

I'm a Green Witch >.>
But I don't think modern people would be able to live without technology, myself included.

But, I do opt for public transportation (which sucks), recycling and the whole 9 yards of the Green Witch.

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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby pelias3 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:36 pm

i'm a biologist Traumwandlerin. not just in the sense that i trained to be one (i did zoology and environmental studies then a further degree) but in the sense that it was all i ever thought about since i can remember. this sort of makes my view of the future and humankind's place in it probably a little different from your own. you're totally right when you say that if we're to preserve something of nature we have to find ways using our creations, our technology, to provide ourselves with what we need without having to constantly pull resources out of whatever might be left of the natural environment.

obviously energy is the buzz word of the day right now and green energy seems to be more and more a workable solution. but i see no way to use biology to provide energy. its just impossible. yeah plants fix carbon and yeah you can make alcohols or oils from them. but only at the expense of either food crops or any remaining natural habitats. so the physical sciences need to take up that role. forget biodiesel or what have you. you can't rob peter to pay paul as the saying goes.

i never liked genetic modification when it was first proposed. protecting crops with novel genes. but it wasn't the fact of doing it that caused me concern as much as the way the companies went about it and was very technical in nature. unnatural? no such thing as unnatural! genes move and the more we look the more we see. so yeah i think we have to adapt crops to be better to do more and provide more. to grow in places that "natural" plants and animals won't so we avoid competing.

i'm also a bit of a science fiction buff so in the end i see biology and physical sciences imitating each other and to be honest on a crash course so that in the end you won't be able to tell where one starts and the other ends. not thinking plants or living computers maybe. but a plant that grows but quite literally produces electricity or fossilises itself with accumulated metals? that i can see! and yes this is all a product of human creativity. we survived as hunter gatherers because of our brains and we have to keep on doing that not just for our own sake and the sake of our children but for the sake of every single living thing on the planet! we won't just give up and die out as a species because we suddenly realise we're destroying our world. no we'll go on struggling and we can struggle towards a way or living in harmony or we can struggle towards a final death spiral and make the permain extinction event look like a tea party!
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby shadowx » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:17 pm

Applause is due i think!

If i were all powerful and rich etc... I would simply move myself and those i love to scotland where i would have a marvellous castle, stables, re-start my sword fighting and essentially live as a knight several hundred years ago, but i wouldnt forsake technology. Going back in time would be great in many ways, but technology is who I am, it's what pays my bills and helps me communicate, not only that but it has saved my life as a baby and the lives of many many others, anyone who says that technology is bad is an idiot, a downright idiot and i cant stand them. Ill educated fools!

As for the future and "how" i dont know exactly, but luckily that isnt my job. I'm not particularly green and to be honest i dont see the future as being living on egg shells and scrimping everywhere, i see it as a place where technology enables me to drive a 4x4 through a forest and have a wood burning stove and leave my lights on all night. Plastic will be replaced with a similar, but biodegradable material whereby it looks and feels like plastic and i can have all the plastic bags i want.

At first it will be biologically based, there is almost no doubt about that. With a combination of GM and other technologies things like bio fuels will become fairly common and perhaps CO2 filters based on algae or living plant cells will be used to screen out carbon as it is emitted by vehicles and such. Eventually, perhaps a hundred years or more, technology will get to a point where it is more efficient than plant based filters etc etc...

Technology is our only hope, green living is fine but it wont save the world. Action is required on a state level, if there was a law introduced to say that all non-advertising commercial lighting is to be turned off 3 hours after closing the office that would make a difference. Think of all the sky scrapers around the world with their lights on all night and no-one working. Why?!

We will see i suppose.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Asch » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:36 pm

Anthropomorphic impacts on our planet cannot be overlooked or really mitigated past a certain point. What kills me are the people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge that A. many many of our resources are truly finite such as coal, oil, minerals etc. and B. refuse to accept that humanity has had a negative impact on the planet from the moment we started building towns and cities and gathering in large groups until now. Stick your head in the sand if you like but I won't join you.

I'm studying for a degree in Environmental Policy and Management. I've made what changes I can afford to to have a greener life but I have a severely limited income. Still, I try, and I love to show my friends methods they can adopt to do the same, whether its as simple as saving all your errands for one day, finding shops and stores that carry hard to find items within walking or a short driving distance, starting small gardens at home even in windows that you can use for herbs and some fresh greens etc. That said I am fully aware that what little good that is doing is being hugely outweighed by the damage our governments and industries continue to do.

I try to be green and I guess I could be classified as a greenwitch but I couldn't' go without internet or my car for more than a few weeks, I know this wont' fix any problems but it's the least I can do, and it's better than being an ostrich.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:20 am

One of the problem is, you probably can go without internet, a car, meat and all those environmental-damaging stuff, but most people are too lazy and won't give up those things. It will just not work if you tell people "It's easy to safe the environement, if everybody would just turn off the TV for one hour a day". Cause you can't depend on people. They won't change their behaviour, only a small amout of people are willing to do so and that's not enough.

What you can do Asch, is making a environmentalism blog. With real news and real stuff you can do. Not the "pick up the litter in the woods" and "put an empty bottle in your toilet to safe water"-crap. Because noone will do this. People are longing for tips how to safe the envronment without an effort and without seeming to be a stupid eco-green-person. Saving the environment should be cool and fun. If you can teach your friends, you can probably teach a lot more people all over the world.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby pelias3 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:13 am

Traumwandlerin wrote:One of the problem is, you probably can go without internet, a car, meat and all those environmental-damaging stuff, but most people are too lazy and won't give up those things.


and the thing is Traum that just a few years ago you'd have said "nearly all people are too lazy..." awareness spreads and things change, though admittedly slowly. so is it TOO slowly and will the damage be too severe to fix itself? not fix itself in the course of geological time but fix itself fast enough for there still to be a place in the environment for us humans? technologies will change. first because we the people make the governments of the world make the industrial giants do it in environmentally friendly ways (in a lot of ways that period appears to be coming to an end already). then they'll change because someone will realise "ooh! its cheaper to do it that way! AND we don't have to be dependant on resources we don't have..." the final phase will be that new technologies will spawn new ways of doing things we never thought of. yeah the snowball effect.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Asch » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:30 am

Regarding giving up meat, there is not enough arable land on the planet to grow enough plants to satisfy the dietary needs of the current population, probably never will be.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:05 am

pelias3 wrote:technologies will change. first because we the people make the governments of the world make the industrial giants do it in environmentally friendly ways (in a lot of ways that period appears to be coming to an end already). then they'll change because someone will realise "ooh! its cheaper to do it that way! AND we don't have to be dependant on resources we don't have..." the final phase will be that new technologies will spawn new ways of doing things we never thought of. yeah the snowball effect.


And who will change this technology? The government can't just say "People, stop being so bad to the environment". No, someone has to invent all this new stuf. Who will this be? Surely not all those green friendly people who say "I live as much in harmony with the nature as I can, I've paid my dues". Actually the people who will safe the environment will be the inventors, the engineers, all the people that know about technology and use it.

What you are talking about is: Yay, people change and will get aware. Maybe start with getting aware yourself? Don't just lay back and say, things will change, I talk to people and pick up litter, and I don't even use a car! That's not helpful at all. The problem will not be solved if we stop eating meat, stop driving cars and shut down the internet. And noone will ever try this. The problem will be solved when people like you will learn about technic, how to use it and how to invent things that help the environment while keeping the level of lifestyle at least where it is now. Really, people haven't changed and they surely won't. Most people means nearly all people except all those freaks who get happy rushes by picking up the litter in a forest.

And Asch, if there is not enough land to satisfy the needs, what are you going to do about it? Convert to vegetarism? Just about zero effectiveness. We are to much people on this planet to say "If I change, I've done enough". Write a cookbook on healthy and environmentfriendly snacks? Will people buy it, many people don't want to try new dishes, or they'll try it occasionally. But you still have more impact than just converting yourself (and maybe some friends). Maybe you can write a Blog and give away free ebooks. Actually there are those books out there, but they don't have much impact. Why? Because they have names like "Tierrechtskochbuch" which means "The cookbook for animal rights". People who are interested in the rights of animals don't need such a book to convert, they are already converted. Other people don't want to sound to green and eco, they want to eat nice food, which is easily prepared. Books like "Das Hartz IV Kochbuch" (translates to probably cooking for people who only live on social helpings) are selling much better. Or "Easy and fast cooking which tastes great". If people are interested in ecology, they'll already look up for fitting books, they don't need this information. The problems are people who aren't interested and won't look up. And this are nearly all people.

So, what can you do to change peoples behaviour into environmental eating habits? Despite converting to vegetarism and write a book about better cooking (and place it reasonably on the market). Maybe do research on how to get the most out of the land? Genetic engineering provides really great solutions there. But most ecofriendly people are against it "because it's not natural" but rather, because they don't have enough understanding of this. The shoes they are wearing aren't natural, too. The vaccine and medical help isn't natural, bot even flowers and Tarot are natural, It's all man-made. There's already researches on how to grow meat without the need to grow real life animals. That's way more effective from an ecological point of view.

So instead of telling people how they should set back there life standards and eating standards, take a look into research and find solutions which provides both: ecofriendly living and maintaining the standards. Nothing else will work.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby pelias3 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:30 am

And who will change this technology? The government can't just say "People, stop being so bad to the environment". No, someone has to invent all this new stuf. Who will this be? Surely not all those green friendly people who say "I live as much in harmony with the nature as I can, I've paid my dues". Actually the people who will safe the environment will be the inventors, the engineers, all the people that know about technology and use it.

oh goddess yes! it will be the inventors et al but basically the people who will save the planet will be the people that were all for destroying it slowly last week! mostly because the government makes laws to prevent environmentally damaging practices! laws change and governments wave around a small carrot of some research money to help grease the wheels of invention. and if you don't believe that look up the history of DDT, and no its not because DDT stopped working because there are still VERY limited uses and countries where its legal to use DDT.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:23 pm

The government won't do anything, since they only want to be elected. If the mass think ecology is great, they think it's great, if not, then not ;)

And the question is, where do we get the inventors? I don't know about the situation in England, but I know in Germany and in the US, there is a big lack of engineers and scientists, there is no one there to invent, but everyone is rambling about what the government and those inventors should do.

So again, what are you doing, despite rambling and picking up litter? ;)
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby JuniperBerry » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:55 pm

You're lucky to be getting off on such a great foot since the German government is incredibly supportive of environmental concerns, Traum. I don't know why the US doesn't follow the lead and make recycling mandatory in all homes, or cut out the use of central heat and air, and work on mandating better built (well insulated) homes, and promoting/financially supportying the restoration of old homes rather than building cities on top of cities. Or charge people fines for hitting trees so that the tree can be replaced. Even the hunting and fishing laws there are incredibly strict. I bet it's very inspiring and really helps out.

Maybe do research on how to get the most out of the land? Genetic engineering provides really great solutions there.



The problem with genetic engineering of plants is a) companies are patenting life. Farmers get seed mixed into their farms from the corporations through air, birds, cross-pollination and then the companies swoop in and file an injuction to stop the local farmer from harvesting his crops. He has to start over from scratch because his whole seed stock and harvest is infected with patented genes, and it takes years before he can have a 'pure' harvest. If it ever happens, with the companies buying up land nearby it's near impossible to not be cross-pollinated. So that's actually threatening the agricultural profit and sustainability of the US.

The second problem with genetic engineering of plants is that it mutates the natural functioning genes of the plant. This leaves plants vulnerable to viruses and infestations that they no longer have the capability to fight against and ruins a whole season of crops. The only way to avoid the infestations is to use pesticides, which costs more money and is incredibly unhealthy, or do what they're doing now- engineering the pesticide within the plants gene. You can't just wash toxins out of your veggies anymore, it's in the gentic make-up. Studies on children that have grown up on GE foods show how unhealthy it is. Excelerated growth, diminished intelligence, immune problems...the list goes on.

Following the cycle through...these engineered and ultimately vulnerable and defected plants keep cross-pollinating into organic/local crops not only causing the farmer to scrap his harvest, but infecting them with their new genetic code, and there's no way to stop it. If it isn't stopped, all of our plants will eventually be genetically engineered and mutated, incapable of defending against attacks and developing immunities. Which is why the EU banned GE foods. It's NOT a safe alternative.
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Re: How to safe the environment

Postby Traumwandlerin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:45 pm

It would be a safe alternative, if people would act reasonable, but you will never achieve it. Same goes with nuclear energy ;) The problem is, people don't want the best solution for everyone, but the fastest with the most money output.

This was only an example, I'm really not informed enough on genetic engineering to say if this is a good solution. It has a big potential, though, if it were responsible researched. It's important for everyone to really think such things through and not have just an opinion, cause they are against (or pro) new development. Sadly many people are against development, therefor do not reasearch the pros and cons right, therefor don't see the real danger and only go against some weird thinkings (like genes are bad!!). This way those people hinder the development while at the same time don't prepare for the real dangers. If they would think about the patents and how new plants integrate in the environment, they would probably rather like to work on forming better regulations than just saying "no" to something, that has a great potential and will come anyway.

But Juniper, I consider you really educated and responsible (and your above post just adds to this), what would be your solution, if you have any? For any ecological problem really ;)
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