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How much choice in religion should my child have?

Discussion of raising your family in the pagan tradition.

Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Greek_Male_Witch » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:34 am

I really want my kid to be a Witch or generally Pagan, but I won't force him/her (I hope I will have a daughter LOL)

if I force my kid to choose paganism because I say so, then I will become like Christians, that leaves no choice but christianity....
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Armina » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:04 am

Oh my word :shock: , that video is so sad. How can anyone put their child through that. Children should not be afraid and fearful of something else, like they clearly are. You give life to your children and you are the most important thing in your child's life, embrace them warts and all.

I have two children both girls one is 3 and the other is 7 yrs old. My oldest is learning about religion all the time and has come home stating that god was born at Christmas and that he looks after you and decided to recite what she has heard at school, amongst other stories. I no most of the stories of by heart, as I was brought up to go to Sunday school and went to Catholic school as a child. I hated every minute of it and had no choice in this matter. I explained all this to my daughter and also said what I believe in which is mother earth.

My husband who is less tolerant of god, decided it best to explain in a certain way ie if God is good why does he let all the bad things happen in the world. This upset my daughter and she couldn't understand why. I explained in the best way i could which was, like you believe in God, dad doesn't and same as Mom. Mom believes in mother earth and dad, you don't. It the same for all different religion out there or way of life, it does not suit everyone. Each person has a choice to believe in what they do, if it is force on you to make you think this way that that is not a good way. You have a choice and its one you make only, I will love you regardless.
I have taken my daughter to Church but I don't think they are that bad, well not the one I took my daughter to, she kind of got bored and asked to leave. Which I agreed to and left asap, not my cup of tea to say the least.
So it is a choice, as he mom you have every right to help her make that choice and why not show her your craft, so she can understand it better :). Like someone previously mentioned your child will make her decision later in life regardless.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Kitty » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:57 am

The churches in the UK tend to be a lot more liberal
although that said, me and a few of my friends got sent to a catholic Sunday school after our parent's friend's daughter's christening - just for the day
now that was fun :twisted: hehe
We asked a lot of questions that the woman couldn't answer etc.
xx
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:03 pm

Hell House is another fairly horrifying documentary about extreme fundamentalists in the South. Instead of making a haunted house they create a 'hell house' that depicts people in hell and the sins they committed to get there. It's pretty disturbing but NOWHERE near the level of Jesus Camp. I was enraged by that documentary. How a person can claim to love a child and then subject them to that is beyond me.

As to the brainwashing of churches, I agree that the younger the child the greater the risk. Think of the perfect love, trust, and faith of a child before they've been battered by life, think of instilling that hate and bigotry of the church in such open vessels. I was raised as a Christian, happily I was dragged to various churches and denominations and got a really good look at the raging hypocrisy in all of them. Still, it's taken me YEARS to get over the guilt and fear of a Christian upbringing.

Please remember that it is ILLEGAL for ANYONE aside from a parent to interfere in the religious upbringing of your child prior to the age of eighteen. You are within your rights to make a stink at the school if you so choose. (I can understand not wanting to) but please, please, PLEASE keep your child out of a Church. If she is insistent then take her yourself and stay with her the whole time. If she looks bored, uncomfortable etc get out and stay out. Hopefully minimal controlled exposure will assuage her curiosity for the time being until she is old enough to make her own evaluation.

You may also want to give her a phrase to pawn off would be evangelizers in her classmates, such as 'my family attends a different church' etc to discourage they're meddling as well and make her more comfortable.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:01 am

I should warn you- I'm a traditional Catholic. In fact, I probably shouldn't even be here because magic is strictly prohibited by Christ and His Church. I was actually investigating the practices of the occult and Satanism when I thought that I might check out a site, such as this, to see what sort of stuff is taught/believed by pagans/witches. I probably wouldn't have stuck around, but I caught sight of that picture of StarWitch, and, admittedly (in my weakness), had to join to see if she was the same beautiful woman that was pictured... Fyi- I still haven't figured that out. Before I lead people to think that I accept your actions here- I actually refuse this them entirely. I don't believe in witchcraft, and I completely condemn it. If the moderator wishes to remove my post because of that- that's her decision obviously. Before she does, though, she might consider that I haven't been rude or done anything but state my beliefs at this point, and that I technically haven't violated the beliefs of anybody else because I cannot force ably-minded people, such as yourselves, to believe anything. I can only convince you. Christ will certainly be wondering why I'm here, so- let me tell you. In addition to the above, I would hope that giving witness to my faith might inspire, as it has in the past on so many other occasions, others to turn away from sin and join Christ.

Without getting too heavy-handed... I'd like to tell you about some of the reasons why I believe in Christ's church, and not just a formless "God" or "man as God" archetype...

I guess my first inspiration is Padre Pio. He was a priest from the early 1900s until his death in 1968. He was a miracle in just about every fact of his life.

Hundreds and thousands of people saw things that, as far as I know, are just scientifically impossible. For instance, he had open wounds in his hands, feet and side that bled over a cup and a half a day for every day of his adult life. He said constantly that he was in incredible pain. He was the first priest to receive what we call the "stigmata," or- the wounds of Christ. His blood smelled fragrant (which it never does normally), and his wounds neither worsened nor repaired- they were static until they healed, just before his death.

Some people tried to test him by admitting false "sins" in his confessional, but before they could, he stopped them and informed them that he knew what they were doing, and then proceeded to tell them all of their real sins. Those people were converted.

There was a guy who attended one of his masses, and he was a bit of a skeptic. During the mass, the guy was white as a ghost and barely spoke. He asked his wife about halfway in- "is it always like this?" She thought he was referring to Pio's intensity during the mass and said- "yes." What he was actually referring to was the fact that he was seeing a crown of thorns on Pio's head, and blood was dripping down his face... But, apparently- he was the only who saw it.

Padre Pio, I've read, was also seen in two places at once on more than one occasion. He communicated with people in their dreams, consulted guardian angels, saved souls in purgatory... The guy was incredible.

Beyond his wounds, there's all kinds of stuff, physically, that is just really remarkable. When doctors would try to use mercury thermometers on him, he would say "no!" but, once they did, they would explode. Why? Because Padre Pio's temperature was consistently above 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

One thing that sort of confused me for a long time was that Pio was a hefty man, even though gluttony is considered a sin. Little did I know that Padre Pio ate almost nothing at all, barely more than a few grams a day, yet- he was hefty... He didn't use any form of heating (fires or modern)... He depended completely on the grace of God.

What's maybe even more spectacular are his accounts of battling demons. Pio was attacked physically on a nightly basis by demons; the people nearby would run to assist him and find him drenched in sweat and bleeding. He did many miracles as well :)

Now... he's only one saint, lol. And... he believed in the Catholic Church (and that there was no salvation outside of it). There are many, many saints and miracles.

One thing that I can speak of personally, and might help you to understand why someone might be influenced or "brainwashed" into believing in Christ... You know how someone tells you about something (like what I just told you about Padre Pio) and you still don't believe it because you're too far removed or didn't see it yourself?

Check this out. My older brother is sort of a sinner without belief that he's a sinner: I confront him on it, but, he's pretty lax I think. One thing that he told me, and he still confirms today (and it would be totally atypical of him to lie to get attention- he'd see that as pathetic), is that... he saw Jesus when he was a little kid. He said that he was just standing there at the beginning of mass, and when they brought the Bible and the crucifix down the aisle, there was Jesus- just walking behind. I didn't believe it myself at first, but- Joe wouldn't lie like that... Plus- it would benefit him to not believe in Jesus tremendously, because that would free him of any guilt in what he's done. Even today, after everything, and after disagreeing with me on tons of stuff, I asked him: "Do you still believe that you saw Jesus?" ... "Yes. I do." If you're curious, Joe said that he looked "very Jewish. Just like what you'd expect... Dark hair... Dark eyes." I read another sort of second-hand account on a catholic message board about a guy who's nephew said, abruptly, that Jesus and Mary had been eating with them at their table every day at breakfast. His niece (the kid's sister) is apparently totally freaked, because she says that she's seen him surrounded by angels...

I guess people can believe what they want. I personally believe what the Catholic church (traditionally) teaches. I believe that Jesus created a new law, which eliminated the old law (Judaism), and that he was the messiah, and... that he will come again. In fact- I think he's coming back very soon. I believe that other religions, belief systems, are what Jesus warned about when he said that "there will be many false prophets."

As to the severity of Catholicism- that's explained by the fact that Jesus is all just... And, he sees all sins. People go to hell for sinning and, if you believe in Hell- you don't want to go there.

This may sound just as incredible, but: there are accounts of people seeing hell and, perhaps even more horrifying- seeing Satan himself. Most people have heard about demon possessions (like Anneliese Michel, which, if you read about, doesn't sound even close to epilepsy, lol), but few have probably heard the accounts of those who have seen "the evil one" himself. Again, in case you're curious... He is described as being so incredibly terrifying that, if it were not for the special grace of God, those who saw it would have died of "pure fright." One guy, I guess, was just in the same general area of one of the saints when he saw Satan in his physical manifestation. When he tried to tell the others what he saw, the guy literally shook from head to foot. I know that sounds like hearsay, but- if you believe in Jesus, you have to believe what he taught, and: that sort of account is totally in keeping.

I know people think that this stuff just happened a really long time ago and it's just interpreted this way and that way, but- I really can't believe that in light of what I've heard and read. The reason I condemn witchcraft, in case you're wondering (and in case you're a "Christian witch,") is because the Bible condemns this sort of stuff, and, in all likely-hood, if you're getting powers from somewhere... It's probably not Heaven. You have to remember, Satan was an Angel before he fell from grace. Don't quote me, but he may have been in one of the upper-most choirs of the angels, like the Seraphim... Not sure about that, though. But- angels (even fallen angels) are tremendously powerful beings; they can do miracles... Fallen angels, also, though- can deceive and lie and mislead and do all sorts of other things to pull you away from the truth. You may have heard of the incubus and succubus? Lot of people who have been "abducted" by aliens describe their captors as "demon-like" and "very much like a demon." There's just all sorts of stuff. Either way, Satan is very powerful. So powerful, in fact, that even if you're given straight evidence, he has put things around you in such a way that you still could not believe. Lots of people are afraid of losing human respect, for instance. But- that's why pride is one of the seven deadly sins.

Anywho- I thought I'd share that. I guess I should also say that this "Jesus Camp" movie, which I've heard a lot about- is not Catholic. Unfortunately, it's the predictable product of heresy against the Church. As these groups splinter further and further from the true church, they lose more and more of their understanding of the faith and fail to understand context, not to mention they lose any ground because they have no vicar from which to derive their authority. I've also read, in conjunction with the specific church that was mentioned, that the same sect was infiltrated by Satanists who were using it as a front to capture people over in Ireland... But that's a separate issue.

To clarify, though- I am a pre-Vatican II, traditional Catholic. I don't accept the heresies of the recent popes. Anywho- there's a Catholic outlook :)
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:14 am

I don't think anyone is saying that Christians are brainwashed, merely that the approach to teaching children Christianity by fear and repetition at a very young age is a stark contrast to the traditional neo-pagan practice of allowing a child to explore his or her beliefs on their own and come to their own conclusions about their path. I have never felt anything in the Church of God that compares to what I feel as a pagan. Your choice is just as legitimate as anyone else's so long as it works for you and -in my opinion - you are not abusing or hurting others in its name or in an attempt to convert them.

That said, please do not condemn us or preach at us about what your faith considers evil, we are not (for the most part) members of your faith, therefore condemning us based on it is mildly ridiculous. It would be akin to a martian disapproving of an Earthlings wardrobe, completely different worlds and needs.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:02 am

It's more like the creations are trying to kill the creator, but- point taken.

I guess one reason a person of faith would vote against "waiting" for someone to come to the realization that God is good is because if you're not baptized, and you die- you go to Hell. That's why abortion, particularly in the Catholic Church, is considered to be so heinous. Not because it's murder, but because it's an immediate fast-track to Hell.

I can't recall who it is right now (although Joan of Arc is in there somehwere as well), but I've been told certain Saints/Priests brought infants back from the dead, only to baptize them, and then they immediately died again. Or, people who are in their middle or later part of life, upon being baptized, died instantly. People thought that was a sort of curse, but it's actually very good- it means they were released from their sins and died immediately thereafter so that they couldn't go on to sin- meaning they went straight to Heaven. Which, lol, means God knew better than to let them stay in this world.

So, to reply tot he original post as to what freedom should be given to that daughter... If a person really believes- it would be none. Unfortunately, if a person is not well educated in the faith, baptism may not matter at all. If allowing your daughter to make this choice purely as a matter of chic or tradition- then it definitely doesn't matter. Perhaps she'll find the faith on her own, but- probably not. It really takes a good understanding of the Church to really effectively allow God to nurture that person. Otherwise- people have a tendency to think certain things are acceptable (like divorce, etc) that, really aren't, and they fall away from the faith. Clearly, as this message board displays, it's not the faith that lends people to intelligible discussion or basic manners. The faith has nothing to do with that. So- your daughter won't be worse off socially because she has denied the true religion: she'll probably be much more accepted, as a matter of fact. However, as I believe- that will not turn out well for her or anybody else. If you don't believe that, though- then nothing really matters as far as the religion is concerned.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:05 am

:) I've been baptized. Twice.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:08 am

In what religion?
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:15 am

Christianity. Baptist and I don't remember what the second denomination was. Let me guess it will only 'count' in your example if it is a pre-Vatican II Catholic Baptism? :) I don't believe I'm going to hell, but I will tell you this, on my deathbed I will have the satisfaction of knowing I've lead a moral and honest life and I am not ashamed or torn about my faith. So if that condemns me to your hell so be it.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:29 am

Your actually exactly correct- pre-vatican II.

Many people have criticized the popes over the centuries because they did things that they thought were anti-Christian. Well, as it turns out- they're exactly correct. Those people are termed "anti-popes," and they don't have to be voted out. The moment that a pope commits to an action or becomes a "manifest heretic," they are ipso facto excommunicated- they can no longer hold the power of the Holy Father. As it were, the election of the pope preceding Paul VI was uncannonical, and it would appear that he was threatened out of his position. Paul VI then destroyed the sacraments by replacing them with watered down versions. The baptism, for instance, no longer contains an exorcism prayer.

How does a person wipe away original sin, then? The sacraments are completely different. The same is true of marriage, reconciliation (confession), etc.

The reason that the baptisms you received don't "count" as you said is because there was no power behind them. The ability to forgive sin was given by Jesus to his apostles after his resurrection when he "breathed on them and gave them the power to forgive sin." They're disciples, the Church and it's priests, were the lineage of that and they had the "power to forgive sin." However, the ordination rite for priests, also, has been undone, so unless you're confessing your sins or being baptized by a priests before 1968... You're in bad shape. Clearly, sects outside of the Catholic faith that don't accept the doctrines of the faith are heretical and outside of the faith as well.

I'm fairly certain that this has never happened before 1968, so...
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:32 am

Well then, by your account every person on Earth born into Catholicism or not after 1968 is damned to Hell?
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:39 am

Every person outside of the Church goes to Hell, yes.
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby Asch » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:40 am

Then, if I may ask, if there is no way for me to be 'properly' baptized - according to your definition - and enter you Heaven, why are you trying to convert me?
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Re: How much choice in religion should my child have?

Postby JacobPeter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:45 am

No, there most certainly is. Like I said, you need to fulfill some certain requirements in terms of your beliefs. If you're going to a church that identifies itself with heretics... That's no good. I mean, in an emergency- I believe you can accept the Eucharist, but, it's really not a good situation. It would have to be extreme. There are, however, priests from before 1968 still around. Also, some sects of orthodoxy or the Eastern rite, I'm told, would be acceptable (I think) provided they meet certain requirements as well. The big thing is how they say and do their increments and from where they were given their ordination.

Otherwise, yes- those people professing to an improper priest, etc- or, generally failing to fulfill the sacraments... Will probably go to Hell. The only exception I might make to that is devotion to the Blessed Virigin Mary. My understanding is that if you're devoted to her- you will not suffer the fires of Hell. I'm not sure how that all works out, but- that's my understanding. Otherwise- it's a tough road.

In other words- say your rosary every day :)
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