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Homosexuality and wicca

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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby barker » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:01 am

Astro Logical 1 wrote:
The internal balance of emotion and logic itself is a masculine/feminine synchronicity.

I would argue that it's [balance] an active ingredient to the higher consciousness. Without it, we may not even have the capacity for influencing the natural flow of the universe

Balance and presence. How did it come to this...

As an alchemist i can state that balance is a natural principle and presence is the result of that. Anyone who knows that, knows the mystery, which indeed is beyond the universe as it is known. I call that spirituality.

Are homosexuals an expression of balance/presence? I can only say they find it in you.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Lady_Lilith » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:39 am

Wicca is less heteronormative than outer court material makes it out to be. It's the God and the Goddess and the drygten which is gender neutral. Gardner called this the prime mover. It's why you have candles for all 3. It's monism NOT dualism.

This goes well with elemental theory of 5 elements. 2 with feminine qualities, 2 with male qualities, and bringing them together creates gender neutral akasha or aether (spirit) which is the ultimate form of magick. It's unfortunate non-initiates fall into ideas that Wicca is gender binary when it's not.

Gardner spoke of this monistic ideal and Doreen Valiente did a poem on Hermaphrodite. She also wrote numerous things about how the agender/non-binary is the ultimate goal of magick because it's about balance.

People don't know about this because they don't tend to read Valiente or Gardner, they go for New Agey preachy authors who weren't ever initiates such as Silver Ravenwolf. So everyone keeps spreading this disinfo about gender binary in Wicca when it's less so than the think. Most don't know about the one source of all beyond gender which is the ultimate expression of nature/witchcraft and is said to have created the God and Goddess.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Siona » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:24 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:Wicca is less heteronormative than outer court material makes it out to be. ...
People don't know about this because they don't tend to read Valiente or Gardner, they go for New Agey preachy authors who weren't ever initiates such as Silver Ravenwolf. So everyone keeps spreading this disinfo about gender binary in Wicca when it's less so than the think. Most don't know about the one source of all beyond gender which is the ultimate expression of nature/witchcraft and is said to have created the God and Goddess.


I've read Gardner and Valiente, I'm familiar with initiatory Wicca. I know that there is a source that's supposed to be beyond the binary. (Hell, I'm fairly certain even Ravenwolf writes about that in one of her books.) And that it does show up in some cases in itself... but how is that typically ritually expressed? Through a binary, a duality. A named God and Goddess pair. By division of many, many things down to feminine and masculine. That works for a great many people, including many LGBTQ+ pagans, and that's fine. But it doesn't work for me, the symbolism does not click, and there are also many LGBTQ+ pagans who run into similar issues, including those who have been initiated into traditional Wiccan practices.

It's also not just within Wicca, but comes up in some traditional witchcraft practices, as well. For example, in one of Veronica Cummer's books about the tradition she practices, she says that female/female and male/male relations are capable of raising energy and forming a magical bond, but they are not the symbolism their tradition utilizes. Everything is broken down to male/female pairs - because this is how you discover the singular power beyond. These things are acknowledged, but never truly receive the same ritual focus that the male/female pairing does. (Not even going to get into the 'women are their bodes, men are their minds, and that's just the way it is' issues found in some of Cochrane's writings...) Again, it works for a lot of people, and I'm not knocking that, but there are also a lot of people who do not click with that, and want to explore other relationships and symbolism - be that sexuality, gender, whatever - and there are a lot of options out there for those who find themselves drawn that way.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Astro Logical 1 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:17 pm

Balance and presence. How did it come to this...

As an alchemist i can state that balance is a natural principle and presence is the result of that. Anyone who knows that, knows the mystery, which indeed is beyond the universe as it is known. I call that spirituality.

Are homosexuals an expression of balance/presence? I can only say they find it in you.


I'm not sure what you're asking me. I'm just saying that every person has masculine and feminine aspects within themself and that I believe sexual inclination isn't really a big deal as far as being a legitimate wiccan or any faith for that matter.

I'm just trying to say that it's ok to be exactly who you are and do whatever you want to do, and that conventional wisdom about masculinity and femininity can be seen at more levels than 2 individuals.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Lady_Lilith » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:07 pm

Siona wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote:Wicca is less heteronormative than outer court material makes it out to be. ...
People don't know about this because they don't tend to read Valiente or Gardner, they go for New Agey preachy authors who weren't ever initiates such as Silver Ravenwolf. So everyone keeps spreading this disinfo about gender binary in Wicca when it's less so than the think. Most don't know about the one source of all beyond gender which is the ultimate expression of nature/witchcraft and is said to have created the God and Goddess.


I've read Gardner and Valiente, I'm familiar with initiatory Wicca. I know that there is a source that's supposed to be beyond the binary. (Hell, I'm fairly certain even Ravenwolf writes about that in one of her books.) And that it does show up in some cases in itself... but how is that typically ritually expressed? Through a binary, a duality. A named God and Goddess pair. By division of many, many things down to feminine and masculine. That works for a great many people, including many LGBTQ+ pagans, and that's fine. But it doesn't work for me, the symbolism does not click, and there are also many LGBTQ+ pagans who run into similar issues, including those who have been initiated into traditional Wiccan practices.

It's also not just within Wicca, but comes up in some traditional witchcraft practices, as well. For example, in one of Veronica Cummer's books about the tradition she practices, she says that female/female and male/male relations are capable of raising energy and forming a magical bond, but they are not the symbolism their tradition utilizes. Everything is broken down to male/female pairs - because this is how you discover the singular power beyond. These things are acknowledged, but never truly receive the same ritual focus that the male/female pairing does. (Not even going to get into the 'women are their bodes, men are their minds, and that's just the way it is' issues found in some of Cochrane's writings...) Again, it works for a lot of people, and I'm not knocking that, but there are also a lot of people who do not click with that, and want to explore other relationships and symbolism - be that sexuality, gender, whatever - and there are a lot of options out there for those who find themselves drawn that way.



We need to remember that gender and sexuality are not the same. Many have LBGT+ friendly rituals now and there is an inclusive Wicca group where we have discussed this very thing. (There are now gay versions of the Great Rite for example. Non-binary HPS's and so forth.) We also have Dianic Wicca which removed the God entirely and was started by a lesbian woman, I am likewise certain there are male centered Wiccan traditions who removed the Goddess but I believe they're quieter so I don't hear about them quite as much. (Possibly because of backlash and being accused of being patriarchal.)

But see people are still ignoring the gender non-binary/gender neutral the One, which even Scott Cunningham's writings mentioned. It's power of three, not one or two. The gender neutral "prime mover" is the universe and the ultimate reality. It contains both and everything in between. This is more so in Wicca as besides Hermeticism, which Wicca is based in, I don't know enough about other witchcraft traditions to say anything. (I read Mastering Witchcraft and it does include gender binary though Paul Huson is a homosexual. So, outside of that I cannot comment.)

As the poster above me said, it's supposed to be similar to the yin-yang sign. It's why despite being nocturnal the Goddess is the light and the God, despite being a solar deity is the darkness. It's not copy-paste gender binary, as there is more fluidity there. If anything I would say the gods of Wicca tend to be more gender fluid in some cases. Hence why Diana/Aradia is so popular and she is not very binary, even just taking Greek mythos into account.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby barker » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:04 am

Astro Logical 1 wrote:
Balance and presence. How did it come to this...

As an alchemist i can state that balance is a natural principle and presence is the result of that. Anyone who knows that, knows the mystery, which indeed is beyond the universe as it is known. I call that spirituality.

Are homosexuals an expression of balance/presence? I can only say they find it in you.


I'm not sure what you're asking me. I'm just saying that every person has masculine and feminine aspects within themself and that I believe sexual inclination isn't really a big deal as far as being a legitimate wiccan or any faith for that matter.

I'm just trying to say that it's ok to be exactly who you are and do whatever you want to do, and that conventional wisdom about masculinity and femininity can be seen at more levels than 2 individuals.


I'm not asking about, just pontificating on...

I agree with everything you have said. Just trying to add, there is a subtle "exoteric shift" in gay people. They place ego outside of themselves. That can work in two ways - extra strength, or chronic victimhood. To each their own path indeed - mine has been to understand anything. Cleanly.

As a prefix, "hetero" means, "use of differences"... Personally I do take that as far as to say that heterosexuals can work with with incoming energy from males and females alike. So maybe there's no such thing as a gay mind, just a difference in ego/attitude to self. barker
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Astro Logical 1 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:32 am

there is a subtle "exoteric shift" in gay people.


Really? I can see that in some but not the majority. I estimate that more gay people are just happy to keep it on the down low and not advertise it at all. Similar to people who used to practice witchcraft felt it was something better kept to oneself.

I'm unfortunately a a disadvantage with being able to fully understand what you're saying again. Not to sound simple but I just often find text is hard to understand if it's written so complex. I think I do but as an empath, text is like being a fish out of water for me.

Do you come at this from a personal understanding or from that of an observer?
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby barker » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:01 am

Astro Logical 1 wrote:
there is a subtle "exoteric shift" in gay people.


Really? I can see that in some but not the majority. I estimate that more gay people are just happy to keep it on the down low and not advertise it at all. Similar to people who used to practice witchcraft felt it was something better kept to oneself.

It would appear to me that the ones who "live it" live it in service to some higher principle. That sort of thing is about divine when done properly.
I'm unfortunately a a disadvantage with being able to fully understand what you're saying again. Not to sound simple but I just often find text is hard to understand if it's written so complex. I think I do but as an empath, text is like being a fish out of water for me.

Do you come at this from a personal understanding or from that of an observer?

I have met a few. Australia is a rather homophobic country, and I have been one to try and walk the line between being straight and not being a hater. I am androgynous myself, having a (small) vagina. Sexuality is fun, from this vantage point - I have no problem with anyone's. It's easy, be yourself.

I am definately trying to relate thought in my writing recently. Although I do have a cursive way to write instead where applicable. I think the key thing to point out about homosexuality is, it's a different spirituality in itself - different spirituality, same religion. Like my androgyne being that. That's all i'm trying to say, the bit in italic's. :)
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Shekinah » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:08 am

Whatever we choose to do or be let the foundation of our affections be love. From love comes the magick in a holy relationship. Without love there is only transitory lust. "An ye harm none, do (or be) as ye will".
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Siona » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:18 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:We need to remember that gender and sexuality are not the same.


Never said they were, it's why I listed them separately in my last post...

Lady_Lilith wrote:Many have LBGT+ friendly rituals now and there is an inclusive Wicca group where we have discussed this very thing.


And that's great, truly. But there are also many that do not. There are many groups were the only gendered focus is on a male/female pair of deities. Even in the fluidity you mention, the fluidity is between a Goddess and a God. Yin-yang. Dark and light. The One becomes expressed through a duality. A specifically male/female duality. Yes, that might total to three, but it is that duality which often becomes the primary, or in some cases only, ritual focus for the practice. Your group has expanded to include symbolism beyond this, and again, that's awesome. But a lot of groups have not.

I did not see my relationship and sexuality reflected within divinity in the groups I explored. (As you say, a different topic from my gender. A non-binary All figure didn't address my sexuality in the way the groups I pursued incorporated the topic. But again, that is a separate topic.) This is not an issue for all LGBTQ+ pagans, as I've said, but it was an issue for me, and it continues to be an issue for quite a few queer pagans. As I originally said, the people were always welcoming. But the symbolism the people utilized did not click with me, personally. That, should that be the case, there are many traditions of witchcraft and paganism out there to explore. That's all.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Lady_Lilith » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:41 pm

Well ok I guess. I am a gender queer and I think there is a lot more fluidity to Wicca. I get some people don't like Wicca, I am just more concerned with misrepresentation. (I don't mean to sound pushy, I just want to point out that people focus on the binary too much. So I apologize if I came off wrong.) Most Wiccans, including myself, and something Starhawk mentioned is that everything we give the gods (etc) are human concoctions anyway. We just use these symbols to interpret/understand nature. But in reality nature is beyond these things. From a scientific perspective, nature is far more complicated.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby LC » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:42 am

Onyxnight,
there are so many beliefs and thoughts out there. I’ve tried to read as much as I can and then mediate/think about it. You can reach out and ask for guidance on how to proceed. You will get an answer maybe not immediately.

“for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are My rituals.” Even though it’s from the Charge of the Goddess, I feel as if it applies universally. Some writers use Spirit instead of Goddess/God.

I believe that you are not required to use Gardnerian or Alexandrian. I feel like Wicca is about love and acceptance. Find what speaks to you and feels right.
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Lady_Lilith » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:53 pm

On the subject of Wicca/witchcraft and gender fluidity, I found this in I believe it was Doreen Valiente's ABCs of Witchcraft:
Image
on the bridge poem summary
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Corbin » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:15 pm

Not to mention Apollo's brother Dionysius.. a suspiciously feminine male youth?
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Re: Homosexuality and wicca

Postby Lady_Lilith » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:48 pm

Yes. Early images of Jesus depict him in a similar fashion to appear androgynous or dual gendered.

Early Christian art of Jesus's baptism: Image
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