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Different ideas about Satan?

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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Lady_Lilith » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:17 am

I love pagan reinterpretations of Satan! <3

First of all, Lilith is supposed to be the consort of Satan. Lilith being undoubtedly Jewish in this case, and Satan in Judaism is different than Satan in Christianity. For one thing in Judaism he has the name of Samael, and he is not against God per se. Rather he is against humanity, as the prosecuting attorney of mankind. I take this view more so.

I see God as a god in a pantheon of gods, which dates back to the Canaanites and when the Israelites were still around. Satan in this case, to me, would be a servant of that god, making him divine and possibly a minor deity. Much like Artemis and her routine of nymphs or Tlaloc and his little tlalocs. No different.

It's interesting to note that "Satan" is NOT a name in the original Hebrew. But a title which means "accuser" or "adversary". Thus, the title of Satan can be applied to many things. Tezcatlipoca, the Aztec god of sorcery for example, in their language is called "Yaotl" which means "enemy". The Spaniards saw fit to give him the title of Satan/Lucifer, and judging by my own experience with that god, he revels in that because it is so fitting for him as "the enemy of both sides".
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby RosieMoonflower » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:05 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:I love pagan reinterpretations of Satan! <3

First of all, Lilith is supposed to be the consort of Satan. Lilith being undoubtedly Jewish in this case, and Satan in Judaism is different than Satan in Christianity. For one thing in Judaism he has the name of Samael, and he is not against God per se. Rather he is against humanity, as the prosecuting attorney of mankind. I take this view more so.

I see God as a god in a pantheon of gods, which dates back to the Canaanites and when the Israelites were still around. Satan in this case, to me, would be a servant of that god, making him divine and possibly a minor deity. Much like Artemis and her routine of nymphs or Tlaloc and his little tlalocs. No different.

It's interesting to note that "Satan" is NOT a name in the original Hebrew. But a title which means "accuser" or "adversary". Thus, the title of Satan can be applied to many things. Tezcatlipoca, the Aztec god of sorcery for example, in their language is called "Yaotl" which means "enemy". The Spaniards saw fit to give him the title of Satan/Lucifer, and judging by my own experience with that god, he revels in that because it is so fitting for him as "the enemy of both sides".


Lilith is Satan's consort? Is this the same Lilith that was created equal with Adam?

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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby CleverlyDisguised » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:40 pm

No in Judaism it's a shedemon who birthed monsters (à la Supernatural)
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby corvidus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:33 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:First of all, Lilith is supposed to be the consort of Satan.


I'm skeptical of this statement as well. The whole Lilith lore, as far as I know, is based off Genesis 1-27:

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.


This "first creation story" is the creation of man and woman, equal, and the whole reason for Lilith. Genesis 2 (I think) is when man is crested first, then woman from the rib.

Lilith being undoubtedly Jewish in this case, and Satan in Judaism is different than Satan in Christianity.


However, I completely agree with this ;)

Satan in this case, to me, would be a servant of that god, making him divine and possibly a minor deity.


I also agree with this. Moread recently I have read an essay (and forgot from where) on how, after the end times, "Satan" will be returned to his position as Archangel on account of his service. Alchemically, corruption is very necessary in order to purify.
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Lady_Lilith » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:51 pm

corvidus wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote:First of all, Lilith is supposed to be the consort of Satan.


I'm skeptical of this statement as well. The whole Lilith lore, as far as I know, is based off Genesis 1-27:

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.


This "first creation story" is the creation of man and woman, equal, and the whole reason for Lilith. Genesis 2 (I think) is when man is crested first, then woman from the rib.


Nope it is not incorrect and I will give you the sources. (We're only concerned with the Jewish Lilith here. Lilith is a Jewish name and the original idea comes from Mespotamia, but this is a story for another time.)

You are right, her story is based on Genesis. However, what you cited is merely half the story. In the folkloric version of events, Lilith married Ashmodai, a prominent Jewish demon. (Latin: Asmodeus) In the Zohar, which is Kabbalah, (Jewish mysticism' biblical commentary is what the Zohar is.) the story is derived from the folkloric version. But this time Lilith is married to Samael who is the Satan of Job, at the end. The Zohar explains there is multiple Liliths and the older one who was once in Eden is married to Samael, while the younger to Asmodeus; this is to explain the folkloric and mysticism's contradicting statements regarding Lilith's marriages.

So, in either event, she was once married to Adam. Divorced him and either married Ashmodai or Samael (Satan) depending on the version of the story. Her being married to Satan is actually the most popular version of the story, at least among modern adherents of hers that are Luciferian or Satanists, and may not be "pagan".

Here is more of Lilith and Samael. She was also God's consort for a short time in Israel's history according to the Zohar. Just wanted to make mention of that because it's interesting.

CleverlyDisguised wrote:No in Judaism it's a shedemon who birthed monsters (à la Supernatural)



This is also true in all of her mythology, but does not necessarily contradict anything I have mentioned before.

corvidus wrote:
I also agree with this. Moread recently I have read an essay (and forgot from where) on how, after the end times, "Satan" will be returned to his position as Archangel on account of his service. Alchemically, corruption is very necessary in order to purify.


I have heard this from a few more religious sources, both Christian and Jewish, that Satan will be restored to his "former glory" back before he had any sort of problems with God. I wouldn't doubt it, no.
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby corvidus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:04 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote: I will give you the sources. (We're only concerned with the Jewish Lilith here. Lilith is a Jewish name and the original idea comes from Mespotamia, but this is a story for another time.)


Well, we're concerned with both Satan and Lilith, and I'll take some time to read and digest the link you've provided ;)

I also think you would like the work of Peter Grey: "The Red Goddess" -- which is an analysis of Innana-Ishtar, with mention of Lilith. I am only 1/4th of the way through it at the moment, but so far it has been an interesting perspective to the history of the Goddess in early Sumerian lore and Mespotamia history.

Thanks ;)
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby corvidus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:07 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:I have heard this from a few more religious sources, both Christian and Jewish, that Satan will be restored to his "former glory" back before he had any sort of problems with God. I wouldn't doubt it, no.


In my own opinion based on personal experience, no Entity has ever, ever, ever had a problem with 'God' (if the word does the concept justice). Even Satan.

'God' is the reason all things exist, the reason Satan draws breath, the reason Michanel fights, and this goes for both good and evil.
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby CleverlyDisguised » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:27 pm

corvidus wrote:I also agree with this. Moread recently I have read an essay (and forgot from where) on how, after the end times, "Satan" will be returned to his position as Archangel on account of his service.


It's likely the same one I referenced several posts ago by St. Jerome
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby corvidus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:42 pm

I must have missed it!!

CleverlyDisguised wrote:"The revered St. Jerome contends that Samael, as Lucifer, may be playing a role for God. From his study of scriptures, Jerome posited that becoming the being known as Lucifer was a monumental task that God assigned to Samael, as he was the only Archangel strong enough to survive the ravages of a Hellish station. This burden, to live as an exile within the flames of Perdition until the End-time, will be revealed when, as a reward for his service, God will accept him back into the ranks of angels and reinstate him to his full power and station as Archangel. St. Jerome was not alone in this belief, as famed religious scholars including Gregory of Nyssa, Origen, St. Augustine, and Ambrosiater all agreed, in principle, with his theory."
- The Book of Angels; Todd Jordan, Ruth Thompson, L.A. Williams, and Renae Taylor.



Yes to this post as well, cleverly
Cleverly described ;)
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby CleverlyDisguised » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:44 pm

corvidus wrote:Yes to this post as well, cleverly ;)
that's the one corvidus
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Lady_Lilith » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:51 am

corvidus wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote: I will give you the sources. (We're only concerned with the Jewish Lilith here. Lilith is a Jewish name and the original idea comes from Mespotamia, but this is a story for another time.)


Well, we're concerned with both Satan and Lilith, and I'll take some time to read and digest the link you've provided ;)

I also think you would like the work of Peter Grey: "The Red Goddess" -- which is an analysis of Innana-Ishtar, with mention of Lilith. I am only 1/4th of the way through it at the moment, but so far it has been an interesting perspective to the history of the Goddess in early Sumerian lore and Mespotamia history.

Thanks ;)


It gets fun when you read the Sumerian and Babylonian texts about her being Ishtar's handmaiden. Additionally, Ishtar has an aspect called Killilli which is similar to Lilitu. That's why the Burney relief identity was confused for along time.


If you apply the later Lilith lore as being created in the image of God, you can apply that Lilitu is created in the image of Ishtar.

Sorry, I am just really passionate about Lilith! :D
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby RosieMoonflower » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:15 pm

Lady_Lilith wrote:
corvidus wrote:
Lady_Lilith wrote: I will give you the sources. (We're only concerned with the Jewish Lilith here. Lilith is a Jewish name and the original idea comes from Mespotamia, but this is a story for another time.)


Well, we're concerned with both Satan and Lilith, and I'll take some time to read and digest the link you've provided ;)

I also think you would like the work of Peter Grey: "The Red Goddess" -- which is an analysis of Innana-Ishtar, with mention of Lilith. I am only 1/4th of the way through it at the moment, but so far it has been an interesting perspective to the history of the Goddess in early Sumerian lore and Mespotamia history.

Thanks ;)


It gets fun when you read the Sumerian and Babylonian texts about her being Ishtar's handmaiden. Additionally, Ishtar has an aspect called Killilli which is similar to Lilitu. That's why the Burney relief identity was confused for along time.


If you apply the later Lilith lore as being created in the image of God, you can apply that Lilitu is created in the image of Ishtar.

Sorry, I am just really passionate about Lilith! :D


Holy cow! I had a vision while meditating on Ishtar once that Lilith was her creation and she loved her so much! I did not know where that came from, but so interesting to hear you've read she was her handmaiden! I would love to read more Sumerian and Babylonian texts. Where did you come across ones to read? For some reason I'm always worried in going to read a poor translation or something not legit, ya know?

Before what I knew of Lilith was that she was Adam's first wife according to the book of jubilee (which apparently there is no version of in a commonly spoken or read language except in the Vatican but no one is allowed to inspect it) and she was created equally with Adam. But, because she was Adam's equal she demanded to be treated as such, but Adam didn't like this. He asked God to give him a more obedient wife, so God made eve from adam's rib (not equal) she she would be obedient to him. Lilith was then banished from eden. I always assumed this was some story made up by Hebrew men at the time to remind the woman where there place is. So interesting to learn she had a role in the original Sumerian creation story as well!

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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Lady_Lilith » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:53 pm

Rosie, I got wind of it in this book called the Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai. It includes a chapter on Lilith, the book is also informative about the Israelite religion outside of that and includes goddesses that are the wives of God.

Other good books on Lilith are Lilith: The First Eve by Hurwitz and Lilith's Cave: Jewish tales of the supernatural.


I wrote a long essay summarizing her ancient history and her other history. I will post them later. This is badly edited but here is a video of me discussing the debate if she is a demon or goddess:

https://youtu.be/z04FlUlh9-I
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Star_Priestess » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:09 am

The following is my intellectual analysis and does not convey any opinions:

The idea of an ultimate evil has been around since the beginning of Zoroastrianism, arguably the world's oldest monotheistic religion, and supposedly the precursor to Judaism. Lilith, as far as I've learned, is a completely Hebrew story and while she did divorce Adam and embraced her sexuality, she wasn't the "consort of Satan" and just slept around with demons much like a succubus, and was said to kill children in their sleep. "Lullaby" is a word that comes from Lilith's name and was sung to children to ward her off. Judaism doesn't even recognize the existence of Satan or the Devil.

Satan as we have now is a Christian concept. Christians through out the millenniums have seen him as the serpent who tempted Eve or as Lucifer, who was also known as a separate entity such as a fallen angel, Babylonian king and has been recognized as the god of the morning star. The separate entity is the more logical approach.

The image of Satan, with the horns and cloven hooves, comes from the Pagan deity Cernunnos or the Greek Pan the early Christians distorted. They made it like that to create propaganda and convince people to convert to the new religion and make the Pagan ones be construed as evil, either as Satan or as demons aligned with him. In the Old Testament, God had forbade humans from eating animals with cloven hooves such as pigs because they were considered to be unclean. On a related note, Viking helmets are erroneously depicted as being horned to align them with the Devil and make them be considered as barbarian heathens.
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Re: Different ideas about Satan?

Postby Chris Fox » Thu May 11, 2017 2:43 pm

catthoughts wrote:Does anyone else here think of Satan as a Pagan God, rather than as some entity like the one Xians describe? I've had an interest in ways to think of Satan "outside of the Xian paradigm", so I wanted to see if anyone else here has done that, and what sources you have found to be helpful.
Anyway, who else has an interest in this? I get frustrated by the many discussions about Satan that insist on taking what the Xians say as fact.

Satan seems to be a very good guy, essentially. Just not to be relied on ultimately - but thats not what he claims. Maybe thats precisely why he can open such interesting doors.

Treat him as a friend and he'll bring life, treat him as a superior and he'll bring madness.
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