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Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

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Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:02 pm

Greetings; I just wanted to clarify this for my own understanding. Are Gods and Goddesses considered to be actual beings according to Wiccans; much like how Christians believe that God is an actual individual?

I'm under the impression that the Gods and Goddesses of the Craft are more symbolic and/or allegorical; a tool of sorts simply meant to help focus one's energy; the real magick is coming from the witch; not the God or Goddess; the symbolism that those characters represent simply helps enhance the power that's already within one's self.

But I could be mistaken, so I decided I'd just ask others to see what the general consensus is in this regard; thank you very much for your time. :)
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby SpiritTalker » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:47 pm

It's my understanding that - as there is no over-seeing authoritative theological body amongst the Wiccan religion (and never will be) - that each person is free to believe as they perceive the gods to be, without interference. It's said that getting a concensus amongst witches is akin to herding cat's. It's recognized that each person is in a different level of belief that is right for where they need to be to manifest their intentions. And I speak only for myself' & not for Wicca as I am self-dedicated, solitary eclectic & not oath bound; and pffft - who cares? :lol:

That being said a fair few who have browsed the magical practices of Hermetics might indeed tend toward the allegorical, as well as personifying & anthrophomophicizing as acts of consciousness; with the idea that if you put your mind into the belief of a thing then it will function through you. (Krikey, but those big words are a mouthful!)

You might be surprised that a good many practicing & devout Christians do not perceive of god-as-an-individual (just the one's who shout loudly seem to do so.) I was never taught that in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation) for adults entering the Catholic faith & i went through the program twice. Again, that's of no interest here. Others will have varied experiences. The cat's are swarming ... :)
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Corbin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:46 am

Not a question easy to approach until we reach a consensus or hard lined definition of 'real' and what equipment qualifies to recognise it?

Good luck with that Neo ;)

(some considerations)

The reality of an ant and an elephant is quite different dependant on which is observing the other. Who's perspective has greater reality?

If time is relative, is time reality?

Most people spend their whole real life within their heads, they also create their own narrative of the passage of reality. How real are you today?

Someone once dreamed of flying, considered it, wanted it. Now we can fly where once it was just a dream. Some would call that dream nothing more then a fantasy, a mental playground, a brains byproduct. Some would say it is one thing trying to better communicate with the other using the best language it has... Others the birthplace of manifestation, a primal or originative chaotic plane of potential. So which dream is real?

Shamanic reality birthed religion. Religion birthed Mysticism and Hermetic thought. Hermeticism birthed modern psychology. So which language or lexicon has greater reality? Which will be real tomorrow?

Yesterday someone hated an idea of something so much it warped the past and maligned the future. Today someone loved the idea of something so much it enriched the past and will change and create a beautiful bright future. How real is an idea?

Dreams, ideas, memory, passions, emotions... Even the ephemeral lends weight'.


-----

Abracadabra

The glass is half full?

Abracadabr

No; my glass is half empty.

Abracadab

Everyday I live?

Abracada

No; everyday I die.

Abracad

All the magic I have …

Abraca

I will fritter away,

Abrac

in the cant’s

Abra

and the won’t,

Abr

in the never’s

Ab

and why’s.

A?

-----

To one person the glass is half-empty, to the other half-full... To the witch? Both are known to be true (a hard truth and a malleable truth) yet knowing that becomes convinced at the version of reality which is the most profitable at the time. Wicked; to twist. Thought=Form; concentration + visualisation + determination (or belief) = Form.

How 'real' is the spirit of something past which lingers, brings passion, emotion to the present? It could be the spirit of a grandmother... Or as easily of a Deity. An archetype. The personification of an idea. The recognition of an expression of Energy? Layers or dimensions of reality. Manifestation of spirit, idea, emotion = entering physical dimensions, for If real is defined as has a physical effect the harder you examine real, the faster it jumps the net and swims away from you. Thought becomes Form. Form becomes Thought.

The rationalist who wants to soberly and carefully quantify and define the universe hates this, the madman who surrenders to whim becomes drunk and lost in it... but the artist shapes it, plays with it and revels in its marvels and revelations, uses it to bring marvels to life and only hoards as much gold as they can carry.

Magic is an Art.

Be blessed


------

... the king said to the fool - "You cherish a lie when you should cherish the truth".

the fool thought and composed in his head "Ah but tis a goode lie, like as goode as any truth. Let yon lords seek their truth in the vaults and heavens and us rude folk in candlelight and hearthfires; mayhaps only the passage of our lives will mark which is the greater folly".

It was as pretty a lie as for the ears of any maiden; yet before it could slip out like a salmon, the fool listened again to what the king had said and simply smiled.

Greatly amused at the fools apparent perpexitude the King said "Has my razor tongue speared me a fool?".

the fool chose to remain silent as he felt redundant... one fool was wit enough...
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Lenaleanna » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:37 am

SpiritTalker wrote:It's my understanding that - as there is no over-seeing authoritative theological body amongst the Wiccan religion (and never will be) - that each person is free to believe as they perceive the gods to be, without interference. It's said that getting a concensus amongst witches is akin to herding cat's. It's recognized that each person is in a different level of belief that is right for where they need to be to manifest their intentions. And I speak only for myself' & not for Wicca as I am self-dedicated, solitary eclectic & not oath bound; and pffft - who cares? :lol:

That being said a fair few who have studied the magical practices of Hermetics might indeed tend toward the allegorical, as well as personifying & anthrophomophicizing as acts of consciousness; with the idea that if you put your mind into the belief of a thing then it will function through you. (Krikey, but those big words are a mouthful!)

You might be surprised that a good many practicing & devout Christians do not perceive of god-as-an-individual (just the one's who shout loudly do so.) I was never taught that in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation) for adults entering the Catholic faith & i went through the program twice. Again, that's of no interest here. Others will have varied experiences. The cat's are swarming ... :)


Meow... meow, prrrrrrrrrr, meow...
Honestly, I agree with SpiritTalker...
Everyone in this world has their own beliefs- and no one can really be told how to think or feel even if the "rules and regulations" are printed out- or carved in stone... lol... ;)
In my Kitty-like-laymen's terms... Meow... ;) (You seriously can NOT herd us... those who have tried... goodnevil aren't with us any more... ;)
As I personally "saw" it in the beginning- and Disney movies like Hercules- silly me- helped... The Gods and Goddesses are as they are- if you personally need an "Almighty Maker"- in my mind that is "IT"- neither he nor she... if there is one- it is whatever YOU need it to be... What helps you sleep at night, what makes you feel SAFE & Sound? Personally- that is what "Religion" is to me- and my opinion is that the freedom in the world we live in- or at least here in the United States of America- with the freedom of religion... although there are still laws that prohibit some practises that some religions honor. :) Which I believe that has to do with common sense, or lack there of by some... and the ones who take things to the extreme and make an otherwise mundane "thing" become something that is OMGOODNESS WRONG and makes everyone look bad even if they are lighting a birthday candle or planting tomatoes in the garden...

Meow... believe in what your heart, soul and every fiber of your being tells you too... Make it fit you... Make it make sense to you- ... Whatever helps you sleep at night and wake up every morning knowing you love yourself- the right way for you... Blessed be!!!

Lenaleanna :flyingwitch:
When the ground gives way and your world collapses, maybe you just need to have faith. And trust that you can survive this. Maybe you just need to hold on tight. And no matter what, don't let go.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby barker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:46 am

Myths. They are as real as your intelligent take on your own life. Decency steps into its OWN heaven...

*** --> LIKE WHAT ELSE IS DECENCY HERE TO DO!!?!! <-- ***

Point of interest, does it take an inspired thought from without, to realise magic? Yes, but no jealousy... At that point the deal is done - you are going to be alright. Christians have a jealous God. Too bad for Him.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:38 am

Thank you all very much for your beautiful insights; helped put things into perspective! I'm leaning towards thinking of the Gods and Goddesses as more personifications of nature and the elements; I think that's what early man did; took in the breathtaking views of the mountains and rivers and heavens above them, then prescribed to each one a deity; a god of the sea, a god of the sky, a god of the mountains, etc. Why they did so, I'm still not quite sure, but whatever the reason, at least we have a lot of cool stories to tell now haha; as a little kid Greek Mythology was always my favorite subject. Big fan of medieval times; often find myself wishing wars were still fought with swords and shields like back in the day, instead of with assault rifles and bombs. War has gotten way too destructive on too large of a scale for my tastes; seems back before the technology boom, not quite as many people died in war because wars weren't able to be fought indefinitely like they are now; back then it was probably enough of a strain on both armies that an agreement might be reached between the kings. Now it's all just button presses and drone strikes like they're playing a video game. It's fun for them now, and it boosts their economy; there's no good enough reason for them to stop fighting each other anymore. :(

....Well geez; that post sure took a turn lol. Sorry; I can be kind of random hahaha.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby barker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:50 am

On that note: All gods might be remembering the storyline that "war" becomes "peace" when faith is the agent of a person... :)
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:31 am

How so?
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby barker » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 pm

It is as though the urge to commit war is potentially in spirituality first. The choice to pursue faith in all love, with fervour. Quite different from killing people, it actually means conquering the quest to realise eternity alone. Myths do this. There is a subtle anger to faith, myths can help make that work in amazing ways.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Corbin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:39 pm

Just remember that the moment you define something you limit it. There is belief and counter-belief (dis-belief is a misnomer) and belief has power - so settling for 'I think of them like this' is perfectly adequate, I think of things like 'this' all the time and allow room to be consistently and pleasantly suprised and subtly effected.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:52 pm

I'm of that thought too; I'm super careful about forming beliefs; I'm not even really sure if I have any hard and fast BELIEFS. In order to hold something as a belief, I'd have to know it to be an un-deniable, verifiable fact.

....Do you have any idea how horrendously rare those are?!?!? LOL I seem to always be multiple minds about everything haha. That's why none of my friends choose me to back them up in a debate; I'll draw it out way to long and make it a huge thing trying to get to the bottom of everybody's fundamental points to prove without condoning or condemning either party because....well....not to sound overly blunt and insensitive, but I don't really believe in right and wrong; good and evil. I can understand why anyone would do just about anything.....might be tied to my autism, but I often think it's because I was locked up for years as a little kid; saw a lot of really messed up stuff; did a lot of messed up stuff myself. After all the messed up stuff over the years, it just got easier and easier for me to see all the shades of gray, and gradually realize that there's no real such thing as good and evil; everyone only ever does what they feel they have to in order to survive; for better or for worse, and it's nobody's fault; it's just fate. We're all products of our environment; shaped by our experiences in life. From the moment we were thust into this world kicking and screaming, we've been bombarded with the beliefs and expectations of others; exterior stimulus triggering neurons to fire off in our brains, mutating us into whatever the environment demands that we become......that's probably why it's so easy for me to forgive people too; even when they do something most would deem unforgiveable.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby barker » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:55 am

I have had a real "belief" or two. They feel limitless and otherworldly. It's true, most of what society calls believing is just opinionation. Sad but true.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:03 am

Indeed. Opinions and Theories abound; Truth is hard to find.
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Lady_Lilith » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Sollomyn wrote:Greetings; I just wanted to clarify this for my own understanding. Are Gods and Goddesses considered to be actual beings according to Wiccans; much like how Christians believe that God is an actual individual?


This varies on the individual since Wicca is more about right practice than right belief. There is no canon about the gods. Asking different Wiccans yields different answers. (It's similar to Hinduism, in this regard.) It'll range from hard polytheism to soft monotheism.

I'm under the impression that the Gods and Goddesses of the Craft are more symbolic and/or allegorical; a tool of sorts simply meant to help focus one's energy; the real magick is coming from the witch; not the God or Goddess; the symbolism that those characters represent simply helps enhance the power that's already within one's self.

But I could be mistaken, so I decided I'd just ask others to see what the general consensus is in this regard; thank you very much for your time. :)


This is a common perception. Gods can be both literal and symbolic, or they can be a combination. None of this is exclusive. But generally, myths and such are not taking literally.

To answer the title question, which is a different one, we can philosophize it. From a purely objective standpoint, gods are ideas. They exist as ideas in people's minds. How they exists outside of being ideas is merely perspective. It will garner different belief systems this way.

Since reality is, for us, on a individual level, entirely subjective and we may/may not have an accurate synopsis of it depending on our brains we can never really know or prove they exist. This is why many people have different perceptions of reality and with that comes beliefs on what/how gods are and if they exist.
"Often I will spin a tale, never will I charge a fee. I'll amuse you an entire eve, but, alas, you won't remember me. What am I?" -Sloth
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Re: Are Gods and Goddesses Real?

Postby Sollomyn » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:19 pm

Wow; very well put. Thanks. :)
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